Saxon army at Danzig 1807

[HKDW]

I think I have some black and white drawings, I will have a look, otherwise get in direct communication with Da Capo who certainly knows 10 times more about the Saxon Army than me.

[Sas]

Yes I admit that I though that he said that Saxon uniformes were the worst. So I completly misunderstood Scharnohorst intentions. Thank you very much for explanation! That's very good information for me
And one more question if you are not bored by my meesages - do you have some sketches of Saxon muskets - my collegue is looking for some information about them but I unfortunatelly don't have anything despite some general information about caliber weight etc (and besides picture of Neushuller in osprey but... you know... ).

J.

[HKDW]

Janek

I think you misunderstood Scharnhort - unter allen - means - amongst all - and he means that amongst all uniforms he has seem the SaXon uniform gives - despite ist Altfränkischen cut - the best protection against cold and bad weather, so indeed a praise and not a critic.

[Sas]

Now I understand your opinion. You're right that altought internet is good source of knowladge and way of communication, but somtimes serious misunderstanding arisie.
Yes I agree with you. Althougt I thought that Scharnhorst wrote that Saxons uniformes were the worst he has ever seen ("(...)entschpricht die Bekleidung der sachsischen soldaten, besonders des infateristen, unter allen denen, die ich in verschidenen Armeen habe kennen gelernt, diesen Zweck am meisten."). I dont's speak German very well - but do I understand this sentence properly: "unfiroms especially of saxon infantry were the worst in soldier's protection I have seen in my life"? I have even checked in my dictionary.

A few lines below Scharhorst writes that assembling "armeln" to waistcoats gave saxon infantrymen better protection from cold and bad weather.

I assume that we agree about shape of lapels - Prussian of pre 1801 period and Saxon were not the same one? I think that we agree that saxon unfiorm cut was outdated to Prussian since 1756 or at last from 1786. That's why Scharnhorst writes about outdated Saxon uniformes. Saxon Rocks are also outdatet to French since 1791 (al last theoretically because Frenchemn had great problems with unifiing their uniformes). They are also outdated by Bavarians (since 1785 Rumford coat, and 1799 coat) and even by Crown Polish Army (since 1791) and if I remember correctly by Wurtembergers, Austrians (since 1769 or 1798), British, Russians (from 1805) etc. So Saxon Rocks became old-fashioned in 1780's-90's. Even if not all armies changed their uniformes we may assume that it was percived as old-fashioned. That's i think Scharnhorst in 1790's complains about old style of Saxon uniform. In 1809 such uniform must be really interesting for recruits for whom Saxon infantrymen was walking history

But there is oe more interesting matter - collars. Somtimes they are standing sometimes not - do you have some theory?

Best Regards
Janek

[HKDW]

I think we suffer from a communication brake down on straight versus curved lapels.
Straight lapels are for me - lapels like in the French Bardin coat or Prussian coat of 1806.
As I told before - the theory of the old coats in 1791 was that they could be hooked down to the front and the lapels crossed over, due to fashion this was hardly possible any longer in like the French Army.
In the Saxon Army however it seems that due to the more ample cut this could be done still in later periods.
This gave them in 1806 / 07 a more old fashioned look than compared to other armies.
As Scharnhorst writes however this old fashioned cut gave a better protection against cold as the too tight and too much cut to the rear coats of the more modern coats.
The front cut - the body line - falling back to the rear and prohibiting the closing down all to the bottom - dictaded the shape of the lapels.

[Sas]

Straight lapels, in or Prussian French uniformes? As I said they were rounded (as Kling describes), they could not be festen in the manner which you describes (it's impossible, try to cut from paper such lapels and festen them - it's completly impossible). On what sources are based your statements?
I have not seen any picture with French or Prussian troops (before 1801) with festen lapels. Prussians used to have as you said two butonholes and two buttons even in 1801 when closing lapels was possible without involving these two buttons. It was even impossible to use it. What's more, infantry and artillery continued to have these buttons despite fasct that their lapels were combined with Rock. So I think suggestion that they played practical role is not based on facts.
As far as I know they had buttons because the reglement celarly stated that they should have (if I remember correctly) 10 buttons in one row. 8 were placed on lapels, 2 on Rock.
As you may see on the pictures only Saxon officers had two additional buttons, Saxon inantrymen hadn't. So I think it was a matter of fashion not practical use.
Saxons did not hooked down their lapels completly because it would be very difficult to walk in it (I tried on Churfurst Rock - very uncomfortable).

Janek

[HKDW]

Techniqually the lapels were straight for all coats, the theory was to be able to cross them over when it was cold in winter and also that the coat could be buttoned down in the front - see the old three buttons benath the French coats and till 1791 there were also button holes beneath the left one.
Due to fashion the coat was cut back more to the rear so that the lapels could not be closed down to the front any longer.
It seems that the Saxon cut did not follow this style.
However - as it can be clearly seen in the Sauerweid prints of 1809 - even the Saxon coat was not longer to be buttoned or hooked down completly, there the lapels were opening up a bit at the end and falling backwards.

[Sas]

Hi,

As usually I’m impressed by number of pictures you have attached! It’s funny I thought I have seen many pictures of Saxon army, but every new message in our discusson reveals more and more black holes of my knowladge about Saxon unifomes

But latest news about Prussians. Since 1756 they had rounded lapels. There was a small space (10 cm) between lapels. Since 1786 they changed Rocks and their lapels became more rouded. The kept unfiroms with rounded lapels till 1801 when they recived version with straight lapels (after Kling history of Prussian unifomes).
I’m still waiting for pictures of prussian uniformes so for now I attach photo of Rock I have (with straight lapels) and my personal Rock (unfortunatelly I made a mistake, and my lapels are rouded as in the prussian uniformes).
What more. If we assume that Saxons hooked down their lapels in 1809 I can guarantee to you that it would be imposible in case of rouded lapels version. I tried with my Rock, it’s impossible.
I think that Saxons had cut of uniromes from times of Northern war. They changed colour, they assembled collar, but still cut was the same. That’s I think the reason why Scharnhorst, Funck and this Frenchmen laughed on their uniformes, that’s I think why Saxons tried to hide their old-style of the uniform by hooking down their lapels.
Pictures you have attached are great source of knowladge but I think that authors often forget about importatnt details. They painted them as they saw Saxon soldiers, from distance lapels looked to be rounded or cut, but they weren’t I think.

Janek
P.S. If you want I have two more articles - one is about Saxon evolutions from 1791, second is about Saxon 4-pdr canons and “sachsiche Richtmaschine”

“Churfurst” Rock based on original, as you can see, they have straight lapels:

http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn0682wp1.png

That’s me in the same uniform:

http://img402.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn0697rf0.png

And that’s me in my own “Prinz Anton” Rock with rounded lapels. I made many changes since then so don’t look at for eg. Turnbacks or “Dragoner”

http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sas2cn3.png

[HKDW]

Yes - I know this series as well - , see the difference to 1806 - there Hess is showing already the standing up collar - for the Interimsrock, also in the series of 1803 you can see a soldier wearing a Kittel.

I am quite positiv - that Sauerweid must have made some really good and not so commonly known prints for 1806 - like one can be seen in the Hourtoulle book of 1806 with the Saxons in Kittel.

So - as real challange we should get the series about 1806 / 07 from Sauerweid

[Fred]

Evolution de l'Armée Saxonne (III)

1803:
Von Low Infanterie :
offizier in uniform; Regimentsfeldscheer; Musquetier
Von Thümmel infanterie :
Offizier; Musquetier im Kittel

[Fred]

Evolution de l'Armée Saxonne (II)

[Fred]

Evolution de l'Armée Saxonne

Cher amis,
En complément de vos échanges, voici différents documents consacrés à l'armée saxonne avant 1807 (1ère partie). Les différences sont parfois minimes, et il faut regarder de près pour voir les évolutions. En ce qui concerne le document prussien daté de 1797, il me parait assez similaire à celui de la Suite de 1797 conservée à la Bibliothèque du Musée de l'Empéri ; même auteur ?
Amitiés
Fred

Liebe Freunde,
Als Ergänzung ihres Austausches, also unterschiedlicher in der sächsischen Armee vor 1807 gewidmeter Papiere ( 1. Teil ){*Seite*}. Die Unterschiede sind manchmal gering, und man muß aus der Nähe ansehen, um die Entwicklungen zu sehen. Bezüglich des preußischen mit 1797 datierten Dokumentes schmückte{*wehrte ab*} er mich, mit demjenigen der Folge von 1797 ziemlich gleichartig, die in der Bibliothek des Museums von Empéri bewahrt ist; derselbe Autor?
Grüße
Fred

Dear friends,
As a supplement to your exchanges, here is various documents dedicated to the Saxon army before 1807 ( 1st part{*party*}). The differences are sometimes small, and it is necessary to look closely to see the evolutions. As regards the Prussian document dated 1797, he{*it*} adorned me rather similar to that of the Continuation{*Suite*} of 1797 kept{*preserved*} in the Library of the Museum of Empéri; the same author?
Best regards
Fred

[admin]

Touché Hans-Karl

Ref. to the "Prussian style" ... I add the images showing IR no. 1 in 1794, out of a unique sample of a uniform manuscript (probably edited in Augsburg) ... one of the many "pearls" of which I made photos quite soon - and which may be added to the growing online bibliography of contemporary uniform series.

Nice regards
Markus Stein

[HKDW]

this was exactly what I suggested above :duell:

There are two series, each of 16 prints, one printed in 1809, the other in 1810
as for Prussian uniform in 1792

[admin]

so you have also the Sauerweid series of 1809? Great news then.

nop ... unfortunately only the one of 1810 ... I must ask Edmund, where the 1809 edition lies - I'll try to make photos of it

Nice regards
Markus