Beutegeschütze Russland 1812

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  • Gunter
    Erfahrener Benutzer
    Chef de Bataillon
    • 01.10.2006
    • 1377

    Beutegeschütze Russland 1812

    Hallo,
    für ein Katalogprojekt wird Hilfe bei der Identifizierung von Geschützrohren benötigt.
    Kaliber: 96 mm
    Länge (ohne Traube): 168,5 cm
    Durchmesser der Schildzapfen: 99 mm
    Kann jemand Hinweise dazu geben, welcher Armee dieses Geschütz zuzuordnen ist?

    Viele Grüße

    Gunter
    Angehängte Dateien
  • Gunter
    Erfahrener Benutzer
    Chef de Bataillon
    • 01.10.2006
    • 1377

    #2
    Ein weiteres Bild.
    Angehängte Dateien

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    • Steve
      Benutzer
      Fourrier
      • 15.12.2007
      • 79

      #3
      Beutegeschütze Russland 1812

      Gunter, my friend, another example, marked 'No. 6', is in the Kremlin collection - your example is in the Borodino Panorama Museum collection also in Moscow. See my post at:

      The Napoleon Series is a huge archive covering all aspects of the Napoleonic Wars, battles and campaigns, personalities, regiments and eyewitness accounts for all nations involved in the conflict.


      I thought these pieces might be from a group cast by Bavaria at Mannheim for Baden.

      Kommentar

      • Steve
        Benutzer
        Fourrier
        • 15.12.2007
        • 79

        #4
        Beutegeschütze Russland 1812.

        Well, I remembered that wrongly!

        See



        "Im nächsten Jahre, 1800, wurden auch für den Landgrafen von Hessen-Darmstadt einige Geschütze gegossen."

        confussed in my mind with, on same page:

        "Die Stückgießerei in Mannheim war 1803 mit Abtretung der Pfälzischen Lande an Baden gekommen."

        So, possibly, the tube may be one of those cast at the "Gieß- und Bohrhaus in München" for Hessen-Darmstadt in 1800 [in the style of the Bavarian M. 1800 6lber].

        Kommentar

        • Gunter
          Erfahrener Benutzer
          Chef de Bataillon
          • 01.10.2006
          • 1377

          #5
          Hi Steve,

          thank you very much for registering. I thought in the same direction about barrels with overall features of a known system, but missing some markings. The low number makes that even more plausible.

          Best Regards

          Gunter

          Kommentar

          • Blesson
            Erfahrener Benutzer
            Adjudant
            • 03.10.2006
            • 778

            #6
            Ich möchte nicht dumm sterben: woran erkenne ich, daß es sich um Geschütze aus Mannheim handelt? Gibt es Gießereimarken, Wappen im Mittelfeld, sonstige charakterische Merkmale?
            Do, ut des

            http://www.ingenieurgeograph.de

            Kommentar

            • Steve
              Benutzer
              Fourrier
              • 15.12.2007
              • 79

              #7
              I misspoke when I originally wrote "Mannheim". I speculate that the pictured piece may have been one of those cast for Hessen-Darmstadt in 1800 at München. The design is identical to Bavarian M. 1800 pieces.

              Perhaps one of our colleagues has access to the archives in München and could check the casting records therein.

              I am sorry for any confusion regarding this matter. It was caused by my own faulty memory.

              Steve

              Kommentar

              • Steve
                Benutzer
                Fourrier
                • 15.12.2007
                • 79

                #8
                Beutegeschütze Russland 1812

                Martin,

                Are you up for a little Spazierengang?

                I have looked through the Petrov 1911 catalog of trophy guns then in the Moscow Kremlin. See:
                Petrov, V. A., general. Orudiia otbityia u Nepriiatelia v 1812 goda. Moscow: 1911. Download:
                http://dlib.rsl.ru/viewer/01003783197#?page=1

                Regarding Hessen-Darmstadt pieces in the Kremlin collection, see my two posts at:

                The Napoleon Series is a huge archive covering all aspects of the Napoleonic Wars, battles and campaigns, personalities, regiments and eyewitness accounts for all nations involved in the conflict.


                The Napoleon Series is a huge archive covering all aspects of the Napoleonic Wars, battles and campaigns, personalities, regiments and eyewitness accounts for all nations involved in the conflict.


                It would be nice to see photographs of these tubes.

                Regarding our ‘unknown’ tubes: There are several other pieces in the Petrov catalog that may be of interest:

                #16 on p. 26: on left trunnion face "No. 12"; on right trunnion face "945"; also marked "26 pud. 35 fn.";
                #174 on p. 34;
                #195 on p. 35: "952 fn."; "No. 11";
                #85 on p. 40: "P. 846";
                #146 on p. 42: "P./843" "No. 3";
                #88 and 89 p. 50;
                #90 p. 50: "945 k." "No. 2";
                #149 p. 153: "P. 925"; "No. 5"

                The first piece is quite interesting, in that it is marked with a Russian weight - "26 pud. 35 fn." - or 1075 Russian pounds. This should be equal to 945 of our unknown pounds, as is also marked on the piece - a Cannon Rosetta stone, perhaps?

                The last piece would appear to be our ‘unknown’ Bavarian type from the Borodino Panorama Museum in Moscow. The other piece from the Kremlin collection must be included in one of the other above cataloged pieces without information.

                Let’s look at

                Beck. Geschichte des Grossherzoglich hessischen Feldartillerie-regiments Nr. 25. 1899. Download available at:

                http://bks4.books.google.com/books?id=2NQOAAAAYAAJ

                On page 88 we learn that "Die Geschütze des Feldartillerie-Korps bestanden 1793 aus 3-, 6- und 12Pfünder Kanonen und aus 7- und 10pfündigen Haubitzen. Sie waren aus Bronze und nach französischer Art konstruirt. .... Die Konstruktion derselben besorgte auf Befehl des Landgrafen Hauptmann Hahn, unter dessen Aufsicht die Rohre in Mannheim gegossen und gebohrt, Laffeten und Fuhrwerke in Darmstadt gebaut wurden. ...." See

                http://books.google.com/books?id=2NQOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA88

                So, we are back to Mannheim with the Bavarians in charge of the casting! But would these be the pre-M. 1800 Bavarian types? Perhaps, the ‘unknown’ Austrian type??

                Well, more like "Waltzing Matilda" then a Spazierengang.

                Steve
                 

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