Feldflaschen in der napoleonischen Armee

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  • Gardekosak
    Erfahrener Benutzer
    Sergent
    • 24.03.2015
    • 158

    Feldflaschen in der napoleonischen Armee

    Heute möchte ich ein Thema ansprechen, über das ich gerne mehr erfahren möchte. Viele Aspekte der Ausrüstung napoleonischer Soldaten werden in der Fachliteratur nur sehr stiefmütterlich behandelt. Ein solcher Gegenstand ist die Feldflasche. In England wurde ein hölzernes Exemplar schon Ende des 18. Jahrhundert eingeführt. Wahrscheinlich hatte man durch die zahlreichen Kolonialkriege die Notwendigkeit erkannt, wie wichtig ein Trinkwasservorrat für den Einsatzfähigkeit Mannschaften war.
    Wie sah es damit in der französischen Armee aus? Ich habe einmal gelesen, dass jeder 10 Mann eine Metallflasche mit Essig bei sich trug, um das Wasser trinkbarer zu machen. Kann mir jemand dazu nähre Hinweise geben?
  • HKDW
    Erfahrener Benutzer
    Colonel
    • 02.10.2006
    • 2990

    #2
    Ich hatte das Thema einmal recherchiert und dazu gab es auch einen bebilderten Artikel, hier kann ich nur den Text anbieten, allerdings in Englisch und Französisch

    Petit Bidon

    The French Small Water-Bottle/Canteen


    Years ago Ian Edwards asked me what I did know about the water bottle/canteen in the French Army and I had to confess not a lot and I thought that they had not a regular one but that the soldier solved this problem individually.
    However research went on and I had to change my view totally. I will show that such a thing as the regular French water-bottle /canteen(for infantry) existed, how it looked like and that it was issued.

    To structure this article it has to be stated that the French had:
    1. Bidon de Companie
    2. Bidon de Vinaigre
    3. Bidone d’Homme de Troupe, also called petit bidon
    4. Grand Bidon

    More or less I will concentrate mainly on the petit bidon which should have been issued to each soldier and was made of white metal.
    To enhance understanding the topic I want to add that the water-bottle, or canteen, is called bidon, which means literally can, jug. The old grand bidon was a real jug and had no lid, while the petit bidon had one and confirms our normal view of such an item.

    Bardin in his very massive dictionary about the army shares more light about the different bidons and for that I would like to start with him on this topic:

    Dictionnaire de L’Armée de Terre, page 735:

    BIDON
    (...) from iron and of four to five pintes ( a pinte 0.931 litre, HKW) is a grand bidon.
    The Ordonnance de Campagne de 1778 charges two sergens of each company to carry a bidon of one pinte filled with vinegar.
    The Instructions de l’An Douze (16 Brumaire) and de l’An Trois (16 ventôse) And the regulation of 1811 (11 juine) wanted that they are delivered three bidons per company and they each of them is carried by a sergent. This rule was never executed.

    BIDONS DE COMPANIE
    Our infantry used tonnelets (small barrels, I think Bardin means that instead of a bidon de compagnie small barrels were used HKW) instead of bidons during the American War of Independence.
    During the Revolutionary Wars one is not finding only one essay in regard of the bidons and the decisions which one finds are contradicting or not realisable.
    The Grand and the Petit Bidon are in the beginning furnished by the Magasins de l’Etat of the title d’Effects De Campement, they are of white metal (fer.blanc, HKW) and last only with effort some months.
    Our Army in Egypt did use other ones because the needs overruled the rules and the laws.

    Bidon (bidons) d’Homme de troupe ou Petit Bidon

    Sort of Bidon de Compagnie which is personally employed, it is of white metal (fer-blanc, HKW) and is called bidon d’homme de troupe to distinguish it from the bidon vinaigre (vinegar canteen,HKW).
    Since the Ordonnance de 1778 (28 Avril) it is in the form of a flattened flacon and convex at the side, it is carried on a carrier of one pouce width.
    La Masse de Campements had to provide the bidons. But this disposition did not last long. – An Imperial decree replaced the bidons of the French Infantry with bottles in wicker cover which they did dispense with because of their fragility.

    REGLEMENTS



    The Règlement Provisoire Sur Le Service De L’Infanterie En Campagne 12 aout 1788 provides following information, Page 4:
    „11.
    Each soldier further on will be issued with a petit bidon form sheet iron for his individual use during the march..
    12.
    This bidon contains one pinte (0.931 litre, HKW) , and is made in the form of a flattened bottle, closed by a lid and formed concave on one side to prevent swinging back and for during the march, it is carried by a one pouce (2.7 cm HKW) wide strap.
    13.
    Two sergens of each company carry a similar bidon, which are to be filled with vinegar, which will be distributed amongst the soldiers during the march, as it is described in the title about marches.“


    In the Règlement Provisoire Sur Le Service De L’Infanterie En Campagne 12 aout 1788 we find more information, page 147:

    „39.
    The captains will then make an appell and an inspection; they will supervise that each soldiers had filled his petit bidon with clear water and they will distribute amongst themselves with the chefs d’escouades (usually a caporal, HKW) two spoons of vinegar per bidon to purify the water and to take off the hardness of it.“

    The vinegar was used as disinfecting and to take away the stale taste of it, there water then was of different quality. How strict this regulation was obeyed remains to speculation but see also the field order of Rochambeau.

    One of the orders for the vinegar is under the entry for 17 July 1780, just a few days after the arrival of the French troops in Newport. It reads:
    La quantite de Vinaigre qui est destine pour meler avec l‘eau que boir en les solvair. Cette quantite est fixe pour le presend a deux pintes et demie (2.33 liter) par Com. Les officiers dans chaque Com l‘aillerond avec le plus grande attention a ce qu‘il enfoi mele une quantite suffisante dans chaque Bidon et qu‘aucun soldat ne boire son eau sans melange.

    And more info by Robert Selig:

    As I was going through Rochambeau‘s Order book looking for the vinegar I ran across this entry that might be of interest:
    Part of the order for June 17, 1781, reads thus:
    „Il Sera Distribue du Rhum“ which means that once the march had started the French skipped the vinegar and went with the real stuff!
    But soldiers wouldn‘t be soldiers if there hadn‘t been the need for the order to continue with advising the officers to pay „la plus grande attention de le faire mettre Dans leur eau at de ne pas suffrer qu‘ils le boisent pure.“
    Unfortunately the order, which is repeated on 6/25/81, doesn‘t say how much rum the soldiers were to get, but I am pretty sure I‘ll find that too one of these days.
    Salut et fraternite
    Bob


    The Règlement provisoire sur le Service de l’Infanterie en Campagne du 5 avril 1792 is giving more interesting detail and partially repeating the 1788 regulations, about the chapter of the marches:

    TITRE XIX.
    Des marches.

    Article Premier.
    (...)
    Page 126:
    34. A quarter of an hour before one is beating le drapeau (a drum signal, HKW), the companies will take their arms and assemble in one rank in the great camp lanes (grandes rues du camp), without stepping over the front barrier ? (sans deborder le front de bandiere, any idea what that is, HKW), & the sergens will mark the ranks as they will want to form them. (they will count the numbers and then divide it by three, will give each rank its name, will form three ranks and give the files their appropriate number, as well as determine the left flanker of the first section and the right flanker of the second section, added just for interest, HKW)
    35. The Capitaines will then make a roll call (appel) and an inspection & take care that each soldier has filled his petit bidon with plain water.
    36. They will distribute amongst themselves with the chefs d’escouades, two spoon full of vinegar per bidon, to purify the water and take off the hardness.
    37. The Vivandiers of the regiment are advised to have amongst them always two small barrels of wine vinegar (vinaigre de vin), of good quality; (...)



    I could find nothing additional in the Manuel d’Infanterie of 1808, which is giving a summary of the above on page 264. Foot note 3.

    However I could detect in the Mémorial de l’Officier d’Infanterie, Paris 1809, some useful information’s, page 519:

    Arrêt du 23 fructidor an 8, classes des masses


    „9. (...) the NCO’s and the soldiers will be issued form the Masse a petit bidon, in this moment where they enter the unit, they must preserve them in good condition.“

    The Mémorial supplies also at page 694 the

    Masse de campement.
    Decret de 25 février 1806

    „4. The small bottle of sheet iron will be not renewed but will be replaced by a bottle in wicker cover, whose form and dimension will be fixed by the Ministre Directeur.“
    5. The existing soldiers and NCOs have to provide this bouteilles clissées at their own expense, the ministre-directeur will prescribe the form and the dimensions.
    6.Each new soldier will receive at entering the corps, on the cost of the masse de campement a bouteille clisées, conforming with the model which is determined by the ministre-directeur; (...)

    I am not sure but I think that Bardin is however again describing a metal water bottle in his regulations of 1812, any help?
    There I don’t own the regulations of 1812 about the equipment I cannot say anything about that. Leopold Beyer shown in his magnificent drawings of the French Army of 1813 some very interesting details, especially about the new equipment and here also a soldat with petit bidon in metal, see on link with pictures.

    About the bidon de vinaigre we find here in the Mémorial also this:

    Campement

    Instruction du ministre de la guerre, donnée en brumaire an 12

    (...)
    Page 406
    It will be furnished further on three bidons per company to contain vinegar, these are carried, during the days of the march by the sergens.

    Battle field findings the originals


    About the petit bidon I had only a vague idea about the dimensions. By chance I meet in 1995 in Italy Alessandro Garulla who gave me an impressive battle field tour about the battle of Loano (November 1795). There he did a lot of excavating he has a rich collection of fragments of originals, buttons etc. and amongst other two specimens of a petit bidon.

    Thanks to Alessandro Garulla and Massimo Barbera I can provide pictorial evidence of one regular petit bidon which they found on the battle-field of Loano (November 1795), here a letter describing where they found it:

    „The finding place is the Monte Gallero (1708 metres high) close to the village of Garessio at the border of the province Savona. This village was occupied in 1794 by and then by French troops in 1795 however permanently, was the in the first French line of the divison Serrurier in the battle of Loano.
    From there the French troops descended to fight against Piemontese units who confronted then in different clashes form October to November 1795.
    There was however only one single attack against the Galero mountain was easily repulsed (according the contemporary French sources) by the French troops throwing stones down form this high rugged mountain face onto the Sardinian Troops.
    Due to the amount of detected musket balls (not to be identified there both armies had obviously the same calibre)[is almost identical, HKW] we believe that in these areas some remarkable clashes must have taken place on different levels of height.
    There these encounters are of certain importance I can supply also a button of a French officer of the 65th demi brigade and of button of a rank and file of the 4th demi-brigade légère made form lead.
    But there is not a single Austrian or Piemontees specimen, who were however placed on another part on the battle field sector.
    Therefore it is highly probable that the detected water-bottles (3 desolate piece, worse than the here photographed ones) are of French origin.“

    For myself this was sensational news because I knew about the bidon only by contemporary pictorial sources of the regulations.

    The excavated item is approximately 13.6 cm wide, 12.7 cm high and about 3.9 cm deep (this taken at the middle of the bottom piece), on each side there had been two eyes for the strap.
    By the photos the shape and way of production is well visible.
    Alessandro Garulla and his re-enactment group did a nice re-production of this item.

    The Italian Army then was strongly copying the French Army and very useful details can be learned form these regulations.
    By that and my source I was able to puzzle the pieces together.
    Another Italian, a very serious researcher, Gabrielle Mandella made me aware of the Italian regulations issued in 1806 – 1809 which supplement nicely the French one.

    ITALIAN REGULATIONS

    “Petit Bidon
    Depth front to back given as 2 pouces 6 lignes ( 6.8 cm) is probably a printing error, 1 pouce 6 lignes (4 cm)is more realistic.
    Height 4 pouces 6 lignes (12.2 cm)(without spout)
    Spout : 1 pouce high (2.70699 cm), diameter of 9 lignes (2 cm)
    Eyes for sling 1 pouce 6 lignes (4cm) length
    Width of bidon 4 pouces 6 lignes (12.2 cm).
    Translation and drawings courtesy Gabriele Mandella.”

    Conversion into decimal system by myself I rounded to produce round figures.

    For comparison

    Original Italian Regulations
    Deep: 3.9 cm 4 cm
    Height: 12. 7 cm 12.2 cm
    Width: 13.6 cm 12.2 cm


    There the ordonnance of 1778 is already mentioning the dimensions of the bidon, confirmed by the 1788 ones, the French in the American War of Independence had this bidon in my view.

    The historian Robert Selig:

    “Talking about bidons: I did go through some of Rochambeau‘s order book and found that in May 1781 on the eve of the march to Yorktown the various regiments were issued somewhere around 20 grand bidons and between 800 and 900 petit bidons, i.e., two grands per co and it seems one petit per man who took part in the march out of the Arsenal du Roi. I couldn‘t find whether these were first issue, i.e., the troops didn‘t have any before that, a wholesale exchange of old with new so that every man had a new bidon, or replacement of broken ones, which would fit in with an earlier remark about the short life-expectancy of those things.”

    And more information form Dr. Robert Selig:

    here's the exact quotes for the info on the bidons etc.
    The Barneville quote is taken from:

    "Journal de Guerre de Brisout de Barneville, Mai 1780-Octobre 1781" The French-American Review 3, No. 4 (October 1950), pp. 217-278, p. 249, entry for 24 September 1780.

    The info from Rochambeau's order book is part of the orders for 2 June 1781 and reads as follows:

    Le Regd: de Bourb: enverra prendre aujourd'hui au Mag: du Roy 92 tentes 22 Manteaux D'armes 5 Marmites dont 3 a changer 35 grand Bidons dont 21 a changer 366 petits bidon, dont 117 a changer.
    Le Regd de Soiss: y enverra a 4 heures moins un quart pour prendre 104 tentes 24 manteaux D'armes 42 gamelles 85 grand Bidons 985 petits Bidons 44 haches (hatches) 12 pioches (axes) et 48 Serpes (bill hooks, hedge bills).
    Le Regd: de St. Onge y enverra a 5 h 1/2 pour prendre 96 tents 26 manteaux D'armes 32 marmites 42 gamelles 86 grands Bidons 866 petits Bidons 43 haches 19 pelles (shovels) 6 pioches et 24 Serpes.
    Le Regd: de 2 pont y enverra a 5.h: moins 1/4 pour prendre 95 tentes 24 manteaux D'armes 20 grand Bidons 755 petits bidons 7 haches et 4 Serpes.
    Le 2d battallion du Regd D'auxonne y enverra demi a 8 h du matin pour prendre 65 tentes 13 manteaux d'Armes 23 marmites 8 gamelles 37 Grand Bidons et 5 a changer, 24 petit bidons et 30 a changer.
    les V.Et: deLauzun y enverront alors a 10 h. du mat: pour prendre 40 tentes 8 manteaux D'armes 19 marmites 15 Gamelles 50 grand Bidons 300 petits bidons 29 pioches 38 Serpes 33 pelles et 30 haches.


    Just to make it a bit more interesting the order for 5 June 1781 contains this entry:

    Les Regd: qui ont des Cappottes de Sentinelles les enveront au Mag: des Effects du Roy et Mrs Les Maj. de Pl: ordonneronts au postes interieurs et exterieurs de les y porter aussi.
    Salut et fraternite
    Bob


    A day order of Rochambeau also mentions the distribution of vineagar before the march. The exact quote will follow when Robert Selig can find it again.

    Effets Militaires
    13 ventôse an 2
    (3 mars 1794)

    États des effets nécessaires pour une armèe de 50.000 hommes


    Quoted from Fabry: Histoire de la Campagne de 1794 en Italie, 1905

    Quantités nécessaires Quantités existantes aux magasins Quantités à compléter

    Petits bidons avec banderole 50,000 7,002 42,998
    Grands bidons 12,600 794 11,806
    Gamelles 10,755 51 10,704
    Marmites en fer battu 10,755 71 10,684


    Notes I took form an article in Revue d’Histoire, No. 7, Juillet1901

    La Bataille de Jemappes, pages 1 – 51

    Demandes Responses

    1000 grand bidons 941
    30,000 petit bidons 7,528
    4000 gamelles 941 gamelles
    4000 marmites 1176 marmites

    A report of the Army of the Rhine of the year 8 in SHAT Vincennes (detected by Gernot Döhne)

    Armée du Rhin
    Aile droite

    Habillement
    Équipement en Campement
    Situation
    Des Magasins de l’Armée
    Au Nivôse an 8e

    They had depots a la suite de l’Armée, at Belfort and at Besancon, I give only the totals of all three:

    Grand Bidon: 3,641
    Petit Bidon: 2.768
    Gamelle en fer blanc: rien
    Sac a marmite: 386
    But no information about the marmite itself.

    That is what was in the depôt and not what was with the men. This Depôt list merits to be completely published because we find a lot of useful information, like watch coats etc.

    Conclusion

    The grand and petit bidons are mentioned already in the ordonnance pour le service en campagne of 1778. Therefore it is most likely the Rochambeaus Army was issued with them.
    Despite all hitherto published material of experts a regulation canteen for the French Infantry did exist.
    Robert Selig proves this with a quote:

    “ Going through the „Journal de guerre“ of Brissot de Barneville I also found this entry under 24 September 1780: „On doit chercher du fer blanc pour renouveller une partie des bidons grands et petits et racommoder les marmites et les couvercles.“ This makes me think they were made of metal.”
    (correspondence with the historian Dr. Robert Selig).

    Also see his exact quote above.

    Army reports prove they were produced and issued to the troops.
    Pictorial evidence is available as well and conforming the dimensions laid out above.
    Battle field findings along with the Italian Regulations enable us to figure out the approximate dimensions of the petit bidon.
    Under field conditions the bidon did not last very long.
    For these reasons makeshift bidons had to be employed alongside the regular issue bidon.
    Also the number of demand did never match the real delivered utensils, not only including bidons but for example gamelles, see situation report of the Armée du Rhin
    of the year 8. This may have been different for a small corps as e.g. Rochambeaus expeditionary corps.

    The French had devised a very clever method of water supply.
    You had the petit bidon for the individual. Then you had the grand bidon to go and to fetch water for cooking and or supplying water for the individual. So one man could supply water for up to five.
    Then you had the bidon de compagnie, where I don’t dare to make any assessment.
    And vinegar was added to the petit bidons and vinegar bidons were carried or should be carried by two and later three sergents per company. Bardin states that this system that three sergents carried vinegar bidons was not realised.
    However the regulation for field service in 1788 state that before the march the captains had to look that the water bottles were filled and also that vinegar was added.
    This is confirmed by a day order of Rochambeau.

    Grand Bidon

    Though this article is not devoted to this worthwhile item I have to touch the topic.
    I will supply pictures of soldier which I think portrait a grand bidon. They don’t concur with the text by Badin that it carried four to five pintes but seemed to be larger.
    I have found no dimensions of the first model of the grand bidon. The Italian Regulations of 1806 – 1809 do already describe the grand bidon which was later officially introduced by the so called Bardin regulations of 1812. Then the bidon did change in outlook and was perfectly cylindrical and had a lid.
    Also I can speculate only about the ration of grand to petit bidon, was it one if four as the list by Fabry suggests, or one in thirty as for Jemappes, or the ration supplied by the order suplied kindly by Robert Selig???

    In the Règlement Provisoire Sur Le Service De L’Infanterie En Campagne 12 aout 1788 I could only find following passage, page 4, titre 1:

    10.

    Chaque chambrée sera pourvue d’une gamelle, d’un bidon, ainsi que des fourches, travers brisés, & piquets nécessaires pour dresser les tentes.

    In the following passage then the petit bidon is mentioned for the individual soldier.
    I thought that in a room one escouade was placed and therefore in theory for one escouade we should have one grand bidon.
    Any more ideas are most welcome on this.

    APPEAL FOR HELP


    I would be very grateful for any additional information about the use of bidons, gamelles, marmites etc, which seem to be very characteristic for the French Army since the 7YW. Because they seemed to be carried already then by a French field army on the march and was not an invention by the Republican Armies.



    Sources:
    See also text.
    Rochambeau‘s order book is officially called:
    „Armee de Rochambeau. Livsre d‘ordre contenant ceux donnes depuis le debarquement des Troupes a Neuport En Amerique 7tentrionales 1780“ It is located in the Archives Generales du Departement de Meurthe-et-Moselle under the number E 235.

    Règlement provisoire sur le Servie de l’Infanterie en Campagne du 12 août 1788, de L’Imprimerie Royale, Paris
    Réglement provioire sur le Service de l’Infanterie en Campagne du 5 avril 1792, l’an quatrième de la Liberté. chez J.B. Collignon, Imprimeur - Libraire, Metz 1792
    Manuel d’Infanterie, chez Magimel, Libraire pour l’Art Militaire, Paris 1808
    Mémorial de l’Officier d’Infanterie, deux volumes, chez Magimel, Libraire pour l’Art Militaire, Paris 1809
    Correspondence with Dr. Robert Selig

    HKW


    Hans Karl asked me a few weeks ago about the text of Rochambeau‘s order re:
    vinegar in the bidons. I‘m so bogged down in work right now that I can‘t find it: if anybody has the text, could you please help me out? Thanks. Forbes and cadman in their „France and New England“ (1925) vol. 1 p. 138 write: „Every man in five was supplied with a bottle of vinegar, a spoonful of which was added to the drinking water in order to kill the malaria germs.“ But they don‘t give a source.
    Talking about bidons: I did go through some of Rochambeau‘s order book and found that in May 1781 on the eve of the march to Yorktown the various regiments were issued somewhere around 20 grand bidons and between 800 and 900 petit bidons, i.e., two grands per co and it seems one petit per man who took part in the march out of the Arsenal du Roi. I couldn‘t find whether these were first issue, i.e., the troops didn‘t have any before that, a wholesale exchange of old with new so that every man had a new bidon, or replacement of broken ones, which would fit in with an earlier remark about the short life-expectancy of those things.
    Going through the „Journal de guerre“ of Brissot de Barneville I also found this entry under 24 September 1780: „On doit chercher du fer blanc pour renouveller une partie des bidons grands et petits et racommoder les marmites et les couvercles.“ This makes me think they were made of metal.
    salut et fraternite
    Bob

    Salut
    I just found in my files some notes about the re – construction the Italians made, I cited verbatim:

    This canteen is a perfect copy of that used during the imperial revolutionary time. It has been manufactured after our discovery of 14 original pieces, by using metal – detector, in the fields where the battle of Loano took place.

    Material : after having analysed the material by the Industrie Aeronautica R. Piaggio, we realized that that the tinned streep thin about 0. 4 mm whose no more on the market, but we had the chance to find in Genoa a good quantity of the material ( 8 sheet) 0.6 mm thin, that we currently use for the production of the canteen.

    Dimensions : Perfectly as the original.
    Production : the two covers are hand banded as originally time, by a well experienced work man and tinned.
    Note: We suggest you to dry the canteen after use to avoid rust (this problem also existed on the original pieces). Please also avoid alcohol which could originate chemical reaction.

    3e batt. De la 51éme D.B.

    Maybe this is of some use for our craftsman.

    Salut et Fraternité

    HK

    Kommentar

    • HKDW
      Erfahrener Benutzer
      Colonel
      • 02.10.2006
      • 2990

      #3
      Hier noch ein Übersetzung von Oliver Schmidt

      Beschreibung der Abmessungen der Bekleidungsgegenstände, der Ausrüstung, der Geschirre, der kleinen Montierungsstücke etc., übernommen von den Musterstücken, die gemäß § 5, Artikel 15 des Reglements vom 1ten Juli 1807 über die Verwaltung und das Rechnungswesen der Truppenteile bestimmt worden sind.

      [Königreich Italien]

      NB: Die Musterstücke wurden durch seine Exzellenz den Minister mit der Entscheidung vom 14ten Januar 1809 genehmigt, und wurden im selben Monat an die Truppenteile verschickt.

      Sack für Austeilungen (Sacco per distribuzione).
      Für alle Waffengattungen, Truppenteile und Dienstgrade.
      Aus zwei gleichen Teilen, mittels Nähten verbunden, jedes aus ungebleichter Leinwand und 55 Zoll (148,94 cm) lang und 30 Zoll (81,24 cm) breit.

      Kessel (Marmitta).
      Für alle Waffengattungen, Truppenteile und Dienstgrade.
      Der Kessel mit Scharnieren aus Blech 8 Zoll 3 Linien (22,341 cm) tief. Hinten 7 geradlinige Zoll (18,956 cm), vorne ist er halboval. Von einer Seite zur anderen 11 Zoll 6 Linien (31,142 cm). Von hinten nach vorne 8 Zoll 3 Linien (22,341 cm). 6 Linien (1,354 cm) vom oberen Ende, wo der Deckel sitzen muß, hat er eine Litze, die aus ringsherum gehendem, 1 [?] Linie (0,226 cm) dicken Eisendraht gebildet und mit gelötetem Blech bedeckt ist.
      Der Deckel aus Blech, 2 [?] Zoll 3 Linien (6,093 cm) hoch.
      Die Ösen, mit denen sich die beiden Enden des Henkels des Kesssels vereinigen, jede mit drei Nägeln befestigt, die innen und außen festgehämmert sind. Die vernietete Platte aus Blech, 2 Zoll (5,416 cm) lang und _ Zoll (1,805 cm) dick. Am oberen Ende 2 Zoll (5,416 cm) breit, am unteren Ende in eine Spitze auslaufend. Der kleine Teller, der die Öse bildet, aus Blech, 7 Linien (1,579) breit und 2 Linien (0,451 cm) dick.
      Der Henkel des Kessels, rund, aus Blech, 26 Zoll (70,408 cm)lang, 2 Linien (0,451 cm) dick. Die Länge muß die des Halbkreises sein, ringsum gemeseen, inklusive der Griffe (in den Ösen) an den beiden Enden.
      De Henkel des Deckels aus Blech, 6 Zoll (16,248 cm) lang, 1 Zoll (2,708 cm) breit, 1 Linie (0,226 cm) dick.

      Bratpfanne (Gamella).
      Für alle Waffengattungen, Truppenteile und Dienstgrade.


      Kanne (Bidone).
      Für alle Waffengattungen, Truppenteile und Dienstgrade.


      Feldflasche (Bidoncino).
      Für alle Waffengattungen, Truppenteile und Dienstgrade.
      Der Körper aus Blech, 4 Zoll 6 Linien (12,186 cm) tief.

      Kommentar

      • Sans-Souci
        Erfahrener Benutzer
        Major
        • 01.10.2006
        • 1886

        #4
        Hier ein kurzer Artikel dazu von Hans-Karl, mit den Abbildungen:



        Und sein etwas umfangreicherer Aufsatz im Circulaire 2/1995:



        Kommentar

        • Gardekosak
          Erfahrener Benutzer
          Sergent
          • 24.03.2015
          • 158

          #5
          Hallo Sans-Souci,
          Vielen Dank für die Informationen. Ich habe vor einiger Zeit eine Feldflasche im Museum von Cospeda fotografiert. Ich bin mir nicht sicher ob diese Flasche wirklich vom Beginn des 19. Jahrhunderts stammt. Mich erinnert die Form mehr an das französische Modell wie es im Krieg von 1870 benutzt wurde.

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          • admin
            Administrator
            Colonel
            • 30.09.2006
            • 2705

            #6
            Zitat von Gardekosak Beitrag anzeigen
            Hallo Sans-Souci,
            Mich erinnert die Form mehr an das französische Modell wie es im Krieg von 1870 benutzt wurde.
            Das sieht in der Tat nach dem französischen Modell der Armee des 2e Empire aus - siehe hier http://2empire.de/index.php/armeen-1...870-71?start=2

            Schöne Grüße
            Markus Stein

            "Wenn wir geboren werden, weinen wir, weil wir diese große Narrenbühne betreten" (King Lear) ... jedem also sein ganz persönliches (Hof-) Narrenleben

            Kommentar

            • Gardekosak
              Erfahrener Benutzer
              Sergent
              • 24.03.2015
              • 158

              #7
              Hallo Markus,
              ja, die Form ist eindeutig französisch. Die Modelle aus dem Krieg von 1870 weichen durch ihren fast ovalen Querschnitt etwas von dieser Flasche ab. Ob es dabei nur eine Variante in der Herstellung oder doch ein früheres Modell handelt, kann ich nicht beurteilen.
              Viele Grüße
              Axel

              Kommentar

              • Sans-Souci
                Erfahrener Benutzer
                Major
                • 01.10.2006
                • 1886

                #8
                Hier ein Überblick über die Modelle der französischen Wasserflaschen ab 1845 (Photo des letzteren Modells weiter unten im Thread):



                Der Bidon mle 1867 ist dem Exemplar in Cospeda zwar ähnlich, aber meiner Meinung nach sind es zwei verschiedene Modelle. Vielleicht (unfundierte Mutmaßung) stammt das Stück aus Cospeda aus Belgien oder einer anderen Nation.

                Trinkflaschen mit einer zusätzlichen seitlichen Öffnung habe ich aber bisher zur Napoleonischen Zeit noch in keiner Armee gesehen.

                Kommentar

                • Spaen
                  Erfahrener Benutzer
                  Sergent-Major
                  • 26.04.2020
                  • 220

                  #9
                  Bei der unter #5 abgebildeten FF handelt es sich ganz zweifelsfrei um das Modell für die französische Infanterie 1870. Die Zuaven und Turkos hatten ein größeres, etwas mehr bauchiges Modell. Die Kavallerie benutzte eine noch größere Flasche in der seitlichen Ansicht von viereckiger Form. Alle Flaschen besaßen zwei Schlaufen für die Tragegurte und diese seltsamen "Tüllen".

                  Kommentar

                  • Gardekosak
                    Erfahrener Benutzer
                    Sergent
                    • 24.03.2015
                    • 158

                    #10
                    Hallo Spaen,
                    vielen Dank für den Hinweis. Die beiden unterschiedlich großen Öffnungen bzw. Tüllen hat einen praktischen Effekt. Sie erleichterten das trinken aus der Flasche, durch die kleine Öffnung kam Luft in die Flasche und die Flüssigkeit konnte gleichmäßig ausfließen. Die heutigen Trinkwasserbehälter sind ähnlich konstruiert.

                    Kommentar

                    • Gardekosak
                      Erfahrener Benutzer
                      Sergent
                      • 24.03.2015
                      • 158

                      #11
                      Hier möchte ich noch die Abbildung einer russischen Feldflasche aus der Zeit um 1840 einfügen. Vielleicht kennt jemand noch andere Ausführung und Varianten früher Flaschen.
                      Grüße
                      Axel
                      IMG_7464.jpg ​​​​​​​

                      Kommentar

                      • clouseau
                        Neuer Benutzer
                        Soldat
                        • 07.06.2012
                        • 22

                        #12
                        Im vor Jahren frisch renovierten Fürstlichen Zeughaus Schwarzburg sind mehrere nahezu gleiche Feldflaschen wie auf den beigefügten Fotos ausgestellt.
                        Du hast keine Berechtigung diese Galerie anzusehen.
                        Diese Galerie hat 3 Bilder

                        Kommentar

                        • Sans-Souci
                          Erfahrener Benutzer
                          Major
                          • 01.10.2006
                          • 1886

                          #13
                          Gibt es ungefähre Größenangaben für die Schwarzburger Feldflaschen ?

                          Sie ähneln preußischen Zeltflaschen aus den Forchtensteiner Beständen, diese haben jedoch oben auf dem (hier etwas herausgezogenen) Deckel noch einen Ring aus Eisen:

                          1477409499.png



                          Kommentar

                          • clouseau
                            Neuer Benutzer
                            Soldat
                            • 07.06.2012
                            • 22

                            #14
                            Leider kann ich keine Größenangaben liefern. Bei meinem Besuch hatte ich kein Maß dabei; war schon froh, dass sie mich so nah an die Flasche herangelassen haben.
                            Die Leute dort sind aber sehr freundlich. Wenn sie nicht intern die Maße schon irgendwo erfasst haben, wird sich bestimmt jemand finden, der zumindest die groben Maße feststellt.

                            Ich würde an deiner Stalle mal einfach dort anfragen.
                            Dann würde ich für meinen Teil direkt eine Frage nachschieben: ob dort eine Datierung der Flaschen (wenigstens ungefähr) vorhanden ist?

                            Kommentar

                            • Gardekosak
                              Erfahrener Benutzer
                              Sergent
                              • 24.03.2015
                              • 158

                              #15
                              Hier noch eine Zeichnung von Feldflaschen der britischen Armee aus der Mitte des 18. Jahrhunderts. Dort sind auch die Abmessungen der verschiedenen Varianten mit angegeben.

                              IMG_7672.jpg

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