Saxon army at Danzig 1807

[Sas]

Bullshit or not Scharnhorst writes in addition to "altfrankisch" that Saxon-unifom cut was worn at the begining of the XVIII century by most of the armies. So I assume he means cut presented on the picture I have attached. But it's the best way to read it personally so I send you whole article (please cofirm If you recive it - sometimes mails send abroad are blocked by anti-vir programs).
About cut Prussian and Saxon. I'll ask my friend for photo of Prussian uniform, and I'll attach picture of Saxon Rock I have. Then I think everything would be clear. I understand it's hard to describe all differences via forum so I think that picture would be very helpful.
Saoxn officers.... well once again I only quote what Funck has written. I assume that he was quite aware of these arising problems among Saxon offiziercorps.

Janek

[admin]

To view the rear of the Saxon coat about the turn of 18th century I attach another plate of the "unauthered" series about Saxon uniforms 1796-1806 ... it shows a corporal of the line regiment Prinz Anton Friedrich, and is a nice proove for the ample cut of the suit.

HKDW: regarding the uniform series, I mustn't consult Edmund, as I have almost all Saxon uniform series in high resolution colour pictures (most of them published on Napoleon Online)

Nice regards
Markus Stein

P.S. Janek, please send me the texts you have added here, I'll add them in a bigger image (my Email: stein@napoleon-online.de)

[HKDW]

I would agree for the difference in the coat in 1806 but not in 1792 when Scharnhorst should have written the article (in case I do understand this correctly?)
I got the information, thanks a lot.

[HKDW]

Markus

so you have also the Sauerweid series of 1809? Great news then.
As for the ample cut - yes this is the most notable difference to the French uniforms, but otherwise?

[HKDW]

Here an Interims Officer Rock of 1806, quite en vogue with me

[admin]

so you have also the Sauerweid series of 1809? Great news then.

nop ... unfortunately only the one of 1810 ... I must ask Edmund, where the 1809 edition lies - I'll try to make photos of it

Nice regards
Markus

[HKDW]

this was exactly what I suggested above :duell:

There are two series, each of 16 prints, one printed in 1809, the other in 1810
as for Prussian uniform in 1792

[admin]

Touché Hans-Karl

Ref. to the "Prussian style" ... I add the images showing IR no. 1 in 1794, out of a unique sample of a uniform manuscript (probably edited in Augsburg) ... one of the many "pearls" of which I made photos quite soon - and which may be added to the growing online bibliography of contemporary uniform series.

Nice regards
Markus Stein

[Fred]

Evolution de l'Armée Saxonne

Cher amis,
En complément de vos échanges, voici différents documents consacrés à l'armée saxonne avant 1807 (1ère partie). Les différences sont parfois minimes, et il faut regarder de près pour voir les évolutions. En ce qui concerne le document prussien daté de 1797, il me parait assez similaire à celui de la Suite de 1797 conservée à la Bibliothèque du Musée de l'Empéri ; même auteur ?
Amitiés
Fred

Liebe Freunde,
Als Ergänzung ihres Austausches, also unterschiedlicher in der sächsischen Armee vor 1807 gewidmeter Papiere ( 1. Teil ){*Seite*}. Die Unterschiede sind manchmal gering, und man muß aus der Nähe ansehen, um die Entwicklungen zu sehen. Bezüglich des preußischen mit 1797 datierten Dokumentes schmückte{*wehrte ab*} er mich, mit demjenigen der Folge von 1797 ziemlich gleichartig, die in der Bibliothek des Museums von Empéri bewahrt ist; derselbe Autor?
Grüße
Fred

Dear friends,
As a supplement to your exchanges, here is various documents dedicated to the Saxon army before 1807 ( 1st part{*party*}). The differences are sometimes small, and it is necessary to look closely to see the evolutions. As regards the Prussian document dated 1797, he{*it*} adorned me rather similar to that of the Continuation{*Suite*} of 1797 kept{*preserved*} in the Library of the Museum of Empéri; the same author?
Best regards
Fred

[Fred]

Evolution de l'Armée Saxonne (II)

[Fred]

Evolution de l'Armée Saxonne (III)

1803:
Von Low Infanterie :
offizier in uniform; Regimentsfeldscheer; Musquetier
Von Thümmel infanterie :
Offizier; Musquetier im Kittel

[HKDW]

Yes - I know this series as well - , see the difference to 1806 - there Hess is showing already the standing up collar - for the Interimsrock, also in the series of 1803 you can see a soldier wearing a Kittel.

I am quite positiv - that Sauerweid must have made some really good and not so commonly known prints for 1806 - like one can be seen in the Hourtoulle book of 1806 with the Saxons in Kittel.

So - as real challange we should get the series about 1806 / 07 from Sauerweid

[Sas]

Hi,

As usually I’m impressed by number of pictures you have attached! It’s funny I thought I have seen many pictures of Saxon army, but every new message in our discusson reveals more and more black holes of my knowladge about Saxon unifomes

But latest news about Prussians. Since 1756 they had rounded lapels. There was a small space (10 cm) between lapels. Since 1786 they changed Rocks and their lapels became more rouded. The kept unfiroms with rounded lapels till 1801 when they recived version with straight lapels (after Kling history of Prussian unifomes).
I’m still waiting for pictures of prussian uniformes so for now I attach photo of Rock I have (with straight lapels) and my personal Rock (unfortunatelly I made a mistake, and my lapels are rouded as in the prussian uniformes).
What more. If we assume that Saxons hooked down their lapels in 1809 I can guarantee to you that it would be imposible in case of rouded lapels version. I tried with my Rock, it’s impossible.
I think that Saxons had cut of uniromes from times of Northern war. They changed colour, they assembled collar, but still cut was the same. That’s I think the reason why Scharnhorst, Funck and this Frenchmen laughed on their uniformes, that’s I think why Saxons tried to hide their old-style of the uniform by hooking down their lapels.
Pictures you have attached are great source of knowladge but I think that authors often forget about importatnt details. They painted them as they saw Saxon soldiers, from distance lapels looked to be rounded or cut, but they weren’t I think.

Janek
P.S. If you want I have two more articles - one is about Saxon evolutions from 1791, second is about Saxon 4-pdr canons and “sachsiche Richtmaschine”

“Churfurst” Rock based on original, as you can see, they have straight lapels:

http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn0682wp1.png

That’s me in the same uniform:

http://img402.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn0697rf0.png

And that’s me in my own “Prinz Anton” Rock with rounded lapels. I made many changes since then so don’t look at for eg. Turnbacks or “Dragoner”

http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sas2cn3.png

[HKDW]

Techniqually the lapels were straight for all coats, the theory was to be able to cross them over when it was cold in winter and also that the coat could be buttoned down in the front - see the old three buttons benath the French coats and till 1791 there were also button holes beneath the left one.
Due to fashion the coat was cut back more to the rear so that the lapels could not be closed down to the front any longer.
It seems that the Saxon cut did not follow this style.
However - as it can be clearly seen in the Sauerweid prints of 1809 - even the Saxon coat was not longer to be buttoned or hooked down completly, there the lapels were opening up a bit at the end and falling backwards.

[Sas]

Straight lapels, in or Prussian French uniformes? As I said they were rounded (as Kling describes), they could not be festen in the manner which you describes (it's impossible, try to cut from paper such lapels and festen them - it's completly impossible). On what sources are based your statements?
I have not seen any picture with French or Prussian troops (before 1801) with festen lapels. Prussians used to have as you said two butonholes and two buttons even in 1801 when closing lapels was possible without involving these two buttons. It was even impossible to use it. What's more, infantry and artillery continued to have these buttons despite fasct that their lapels were combined with Rock. So I think suggestion that they played practical role is not based on facts.
As far as I know they had buttons because the reglement celarly stated that they should have (if I remember correctly) 10 buttons in one row. 8 were placed on lapels, 2 on Rock.
As you may see on the pictures only Saxon officers had two additional buttons, Saxon inantrymen hadn't. So I think it was a matter of fashion not practical use.
Saxons did not hooked down their lapels completly because it would be very difficult to walk in it (I tried on Churfurst Rock - very uncomfortable).

Janek