Die Elberfelder Bilderhandschrift: Bilder und Dokumente aus napoleonischer Zeit

[Kein Prinz]

Gentlemen,
I fear history and statistics are leading us astray!
While the 'embodiement' is nice to know, it can also be misleading as well.

Reading (or scanning for this sample) "Liste des Officiers, des cadres de l'Etat major, des Sous officiers et des hommes" from Berjauds alphabetic list of primary data (Registers?) I found out of the first 40 men [A-B]:
- a high proportion were in the army in 1791, some becoming sous-off and officers mid- Empire
- a very few were noted as from amalgames,
- a larger portion, about 15, were from the 19e Legere, [19eL appears under two factions].
- about 50% were present in the first campaigns of Empire- 1805-07 or noted as being present in Grande Armée 1808.
- about only 7-8 reached the 1809 campaign
-a tiny proportion (3-4) went to Spain
- an even smaller proportion were noted as in service 1810/11.
- The evil of San Domigue is present with later entries denoting the demise of another handful.

Now while nothing definitive (as theres maybe 400 references) can be said, I feel the 'lineage' or continuance of a regiment is a circumspect matter.

I could easily provide in modern terms the existence of corporations in NZ now, that stretched back to the 1950s. However I would guaratee that 99.999% of the employees, were not present through all the phases- economic, downfalls and corporate 'shape shifting' that has occured since then. In the 90's an employment ruse of 'letting go' those who had accrued seniority, wealth in superannuation holdings (ie a burden expense to corporations) etc.

The men who lasted, those who got promoted on the 'holy path to the baton' etc. had more difficult jobs as the homogeniety so desired was continually broken down. Yes for good during the Revolutionary era till 1798/ 1800; consolidation due to economic hardship and opportune 'peace' under the Consulate, but later dismemberment and division as the need for increased manpower, dispersion across the entire continent, and rationalised ratios of officers/ command to 'manpower' where dispersion took effect.

regards dave

*http://frederic.berjaud.free.fr/Arti...u_3e_leger.htm

[Prince of Essling]

From:
Les Volontaires: 1791-1794
Rousset, Camille
Publication date 1870
https://archive.org/download/sc_0000...0001641888.pdf

Volontaires Nationaux et Bataillons par Departement.

Alpes (Basses-)
4e bataillon (ou 1er chasseurs des Alpes) formé 31 Janvier 1793

Corps francs.
Chasseurs révolutionnaires formé août 1793 (Formés d'hommes ayant appartenu aux garnisons des vaisseaux à Toulon et qui avaient pu en sortir avant l'arrivée des Espagnols et des Anglais)

3e compagnie franche de la Haute-Vienne formé juillet 1792.
Chasseurs de la Gironde formé 28 juillet 1792.
Compagnie franche de Saintes form. 10 avril 1793.
Compagnie franche de Barbezieux formé 3 mai 1793.
3e compagnie franche de la Creuse formé 23 mai 1793.
Compagnie franche de la Rochelle formé 6 juin 1795.
Compagnie franche de Rouillac formé 17 frimaire an II.
N. B. — Ces compagnies ont contribué à la formation du 1er bataillon de chasseurs réunis. formé 15 brumaire an IV.



Demi-Brigades de Première Formation Amalgame
3e demi-brigade (1er germinal an 11).
3e bataillon de chassseurs (ci-devant Royaux Corses)
2e bataillon de chasseurs révolutionnaires
1er bataillon de chasseurs des Alpes

7e demi-brigade (6 messsidor an II)
7e bataillon de chasseurs (ci-devant d'Auvergne).
1er bataillon de la Corrèze.
2e bataillon de la Dordogne.

15e demi-brigade (22 messsidor an II)
15e bataillon de chasseurs corses (levé en 1793)
9e bataillon du district de Lille
2e bataillon des Bouches-du-Rhòne
5e bataillon de Vauclus, incorporé dans le précédent

Demi-Brigades de Seconde Formation
3e demi-brigade (15 ventôse an IV).
7e légère ancienne (1^st formation)
15e légère ancienne (1^st formation)
1 er bataillon de chasseurs réunis
NB: En l’an XII, la 19° légère a été réunie à la former le 3° régiment d’infanterie légère.

19e demi-brigade (25 ventôse an VII).
Detachements des 3e et 6e légères nouvelles et de la 31e division de gendarmerie.
2e bataillon de la 141e de bataille.
3e bataillon de l'Aisne.
N. B. Numéro vacant en l'an XII, la 19 e ayant été réunie à la 3e pour former le 3e régiment d'infanterie légère.

[Spaen]

Wie gewohnt von euch wieder sehr sachkundige Beiträge. Vielen Dank, Dank auch für die Korrektur Prince of Essling.
Ich habe noch einmal in meine anderen Unterlagen geschaut und da ergibt sich ein veränderter Sachverhalt.

Das 7. Bat. Chasseur à pied, das 1.Bat. de la Corrèze und das 2. Bat. de la Dordogne bildeten in der 1. Amalgam. die 7.leg. DB. Die Bataillone gingen zurück auf die Chasseurs d` Auvergne.
In der 2. Amalgam. wurde die 7.leg. DB. und die 15. lègère Volontaires in die neue 3. leg. DB umgewandelt. 1816 wurde aus dieser unter Einbeziehung verschiedener anderer Bataillone die Legion Bass-Pyrénées.

Die alte 3. leg. DB der 1. Amalgam. wurde in der 2. Amalgam. in die neue 11. leg. DB umorganisiert und die geht demzufolge auf die Chasseur royaux corses zurück.

[Kein Prinz]

On July 8, 1802 (19 Messidor an 10), Bonaparte decree, in Paris: "There will be formed a battalion of light infantry, of Corsican fighters. This battalion will be the 3rd Battalion of the 3rd Light Infantry. It will have its particular Board of Directors, which will report to the Board of Directors of the half-brigade, and will correspond directly with the Minister of War. "

This is in fact the embryonic 'Tirailleur Corse' battalion. Did Bonaparte really send men to their deaths in order to raise another 'special' unit? Seems he did.

The same day- "Vous recevrez, Citoyen Ministre, un arrêté qui forme un 3e bataillon à la 3e demi-brigade d'infanterie légère. Ce bataillon n'est attaché à cette demi-brigade que pour entrer dans le cadre de l'armée. Son avancement roulera seulement dans le bataillon. Il sera créé une instruction pour former des dépôts à Ajaccio et Bastia, et accordé des fonds pour les engagements. Tous les officiers, sous-officiers et soldats de ce bataillon doivent tous être Corses.
Le principal but de cette formation, c'est d'engager les habitants des montagnes à prendre du service, et, comme les deux départements de l'île fournissent une grande quantité de bons soldats, il est essentiel de leur offrir un débouché en France, afin qu'ils ne prennent pas du service ailleurs, ou ne troublent pas le pays."

Another cites: "By the Decree of 12 Floréal year 11 (May 2, 1803) "relating to the organization of several demi-brigades in the colonies", the 2nd Battalion of the 3rd Light Demi-brigade entered into the formation of the new 5th Light Demi-brigade."

And following: " By the decree of September 24, 1803 as with all French infantry, the Demi-Brigade was reinstated as a Regiment, and the Chef de Brigade was promoted to Colonel. A Major was added to the command staff. The Regiment was expanded to three battle battalions through the transfer of battalions from the disbanded 19th Light Demi-Brigade."

The 'Etat Militaire De France 1805 pour L'AN XIII -Troupes de L 'EMPIRE FRANÇAIS' cites 3eme Legére 'NOMS ANCIENS' -Royal-Corse- came from:
5e de ligne. 12e idem, 33e idem.

More confusion (but not for uniforms perhaps!).
I'm doing the same for the 15e Legere!
regards davew

[Prince of Essling]

Spaen,

Looking at "Historiques des corps de troupe de l'armée française (1569-1900)", Berger Levrault & Cie (Editeurs) Paris 1900 Historiques des corps de troupe de l'armée française (1569-1900)... | Gallica I would have to agree with you.

But clearly some further very deep digging is necessary as under 3e Legere Digby-Smith has also (cannot believe he made it up):

Ancestors: Raised on 1 May 1778 from the infantry companies attached to the ChaCh des Pyrenees,
1793 1st Amalgamation (26 Dec) became 7e DBdeLe together with the old 1er Bn Vol de la Correze and the 2nd de la Dordogne
1796 2nd Amalgamation (5 Mar) became the 3DBdeLe
1801 by decree of 7 Oct was disbanded
1803 reraised as 3e Legere.
etc etc as in my earlier post above.

[Spaen]

"According to Digby-Smith's "Napoleon's Regiments - battle histories of the Regiments of the French Army 1792-1815" the 3e Legere was disbanded on 12 May 1814 but re-raised at once with the same number and the title "Du Dauphin". It was disbanded and re-raised again 13 March 1815. Title from 3 August 1815 Legion des Basses-Pyrenees; 1820 13e Regiment d'Infanterie Legere; 1854 88e Regiment d'Infanterie de Ligne."

???????

Nach meiner Kenntnis geht die Geschichte des 3. Leichten auf die 1739 errichteten Royal-Corse zurück, 1816 Legion des Haute-Alpes und wurde 1855 das 78.Linienregiment

[Prince of Essling]

According to Digby-Smith's "Napoleon's Regiments - battle histories of the Regiments of the French Army 1792-1815" the 3e Legere was disbanded on 12 May 1814 but re-raised at once with the same number and the title "Du Dauphin". It was disbanded and re-raised again 13 March 1815. Title from 3 August 1815 Legion des Basses-Pyrenees; 1820 13e Regiment d'Infanterie Legere; 1854 88e Regiment d'Infanterie de Ligne.

The only historique I have found for the 3e Legere relates to World War 1 but I will have a look at Digby-Smith's suggestions for the successor regiments & will update this post if anything of interest is found.

[Kein Prinz]

In consulting the Dawson books on the side, both the 2e and 3e Legeres archives have little material of use. Conjecturally using Martinet doesn't solve anything either.

For the 10e and 15 Legere, a little more information appears, but not anything conclusive for the pre-1807 period. Remarking that virtually every illustration of this famous Pratzen Heights conquering regiment (only two battalions) all fall post 1808. Despite having a very efficient Colonel Pouzet in charge, the regimental records are missing it seems.

“Reviewed on 17 October 1804, not an inch of chamois broadcloth existed, and no distinctions existed for the carabiniers.” “Exactly the same comments can be made of the 13 August 1805 inspection, except we note the 6 voltigeur cornets were armed with light cavalry mousquetons and were issued gibernes and belts.
Purchased in 1806 were:
100 pairs green epaulettes *
1,000 sword knots
1,750 pairs green epaulettes *
500 plumes
200 sword knots”

*Why this separation of the sum is peculiar, unless an error has been made with one or other description. I note that the illustration shows sappers in colpacks, not ourson,

For the 15e Legere (an ad-hoc attachment to Davouts III Corps) of Friants Division (part of which I am recreating now as well) there is again a paucity of confirmable information.

“Inspected on 8 December 1807, not an inch of chamois broadcloth existed in stores in 1805 or had been purchased since that date. Every man was wearing a schako. Despite not have any distinctions, the voltigeurs were armed with 326 dragoon muskets, with the officers and sous-officiers being issued 31 rifles. Only carabiniers, sous-officiers, drummers and cornets carried sabres.... “– it is clear the firearms had been exchanged on campaign, and the voltigeurs had lost their sabres, and had no chamois distinctions.”

This material may be protected by copyright. Excerpt From Napoleon’s Light Infantry and Artillery: Uniforms and Equipment -Paul L. Dawson

If this were true, it rather makes a lie out of the illustrations of Kieffer and Boisellier, both showing chamois or citron and scarlet attributes.
Regards dave

[Kein Prinz]

Image_20251229_0001.jpg
Zur Intensivierung der Diskussion, hier mal ein Bildbetrag von keinem Experten für französische Uniformen!

Spaen, du schlauer Fuchs, natürlich hast du recht an allen Fronten!
Bitte seien Sie so freundlich, uns daran zu erinnern, was die "Kollektionen "dubois de l'etang" sind, da ich keinen definitiven Bezug dazu finden kann! [ Nein, ich schlucke nicht... Blinzeln ]

Natürlich wirft eine solche Illustration sofort Bedenken auf - die Perfektion, Definition und Vollständigkeit, von denen ein Großteil mit anderen "zeitgenössischen" Illustrationen im Widerspruch steht, wirft Bedenken auf.

Ich würde die Datierung ablehnen, es sei denn, die Darstellung von neu gekleideten Männern im Depot, und dies wird selten erklärt; die 1786 Mustergewohnheit Spitze für Einheiten, die zu dieser Zeit nicht in dieser Form existierte (und nie zuvor 1786 Muster als von einer Legere-Einheit getragen dargestellt); die nummerierte Shako-Platte, wo die meisten einen Bugle hatten; die 2/5ths- 3/5s Break in Plume, die nicht anderswo gesehen wird (1/3

Diese Angelexpedition ist dem 'Uniformes Blanc von 1806' sehr ähnlich - ein weiteres feines Durcheinander, das Sie uns in 'Olliy' gebracht haben ...

Aber dann knacke ich gerne einen Fall!

Ehrliche Grüße,
Dave

---

Spaen, you wily fox, of course your are right on all fronts!
Please be kind enough to remind us what the "collectiones "dubois de l'etang"" is, as I cannot find any definitive reference to it on line! [ No, I do not guggl... ]

Of course such an illustration immediately raises concerns- the perfection, definition and completeness, much of which is contradictory to other 'contemporary' illustrations, raises concerns.

I'd reject the dating, unless depiction of newly dressed men at the depot, and this is rarely explained; the 1786 pattern habit lace for units that did not exist in that form at that time (and never before seen 1786 pattern depicted as worn by any legere unit); the numbered shako plate where most had a bugle; the 2/5ths- 3/5ths break in plume that isn't seen elsewhere (1/3rd and 1/4s yes...); pointed red cuffs whereas every other 'contemporary' illustration shows blue Swedish cuff with red flaps etc according to my analysis... [however to highlight the variations the 2eme Legere apparently did wear this; and the 15e Legere had blue pointed cuffs pipe white, to complete the mix].

This fishing expedition is a lot like the 'uniformes blanc of 1806' - another fine mess you've got us into 'Olliy' ...

But then i do like cracking a case !

Honest regards,
dave

---

[Spaen]

Image_20251229_0001.jpg
Zur Intensivierung der Diskussion, hier mal ein Bildbetrag von keinem Experten für französische Uniformen!

[Kein Prinz]

From the German edition of the book on Lucien Rousselot's " Napoleons Armee 1800-1815"

Ian thank you once again!
And here we see the traction of copyists being copied by generations...

OK so I concur there is some confidence in the provenance of the source this time!
The 3e Legére elites were taken for the Grenadiers Réunis in 1803 and by the supposed date of this drawing, were in garrison nearer France after demobilisation of that corps in July 1806.

I was particularly drawn by the 'antique' nature of the drummers attire- old style 1800 shako, fittings etc; perhaps unusual that a musician/ bandsman in a tete-du-colonne role wouldn't have been given an updated uniform by the end of 1807, particularly when you see the up-to-date attributes of the other characters! He also displays unusual 'round/ Swedish cuffs sans buttons of flap, more like a surtout than an habit (but given the red revers) we have another quandry.

The blue veste worn by both is atypical as many legere regiments continued to issue/ wear white vests throughout the era.

[*Edit: I forgot to mention that this illustration very well omits the one point of the Voltz contemporary artowrk, that of red turnbacks a-la 'la garde' that these men supposedly wore in faux imitation. He also showed plumes on the rhs of bearskins- not an unknown variant as well !].

The 'garrison' nature of the scene, draws attention to the lack of scarlet braid and tassel on the carabiniers gaiters; the simple (single) headwear cords of all the unit, and blue cuffs with red cuff flaps also typical. A mix and match uniqueness to uniforms!

---

In a sort of takeover beyond the specific subject I feel the need to explain my modelling rationale that I developed a few years ago (2018/19) in trying to model the unknown, in this case the 10e Legere.

Where there are no definitive references that I have found for a regiment, and my sources such as Rousellot, Bucquoy, Toussaint, Detaille and many online, virtually always depict uniforms for 1808-10-12 than earlier; or are at least contradictory over details. La Sabretache notes their use of carabinier bearskins.

Because I'm being pedantic about them in 'accurate' uniforms I have used in my 'agile' pragmatic approach to completing the army, discretionary calls in order-
1- exact details where known;
2- earlier Revolution/ Consular uniform extended to early empire;
3- adopt a later variation known for the unit with sliding backdated effect;
4- adopt a known uniform for the next nearest known accurate regiment.

I've taken the plain 1801 shako with side plume for chasseurs (revised courtesy of HKW). Where known I'll throw in a sapeur; porte-aigles are always NCO's etc.

So I shall use the 'archaic' older uniform for a drummer and attributes of the carabinier for my 1805 models,
thank you for indulging my fanciful directions!

Regards to all,
dave

[Prince of Essling]

From the German edition of the book on Lucien Rousselot's " Napoleons Armee 1800-1815"

[Kein Prinz]

Muchos Gracias amigos.

It is Sunday here and I am off to the market for a large fish (Snapper) for lunch/ dinner and a smoking curry (not for me mind)- so this is just an acknowledgement for now gentlemen.
I suspected it was 'H' Kn but I didn't want to say it!
I'll get on translating the text as soon as I can when back.
Voltz and others cover the subject as well,

Danke schön
dave

[Prince of Essling]

Hi Dave,

Please find attached merged copy of the two articles on Lûneburger Bilderhandschrift which featured in Zeitschrift Fur Heereskunde in the 1950s. This includes crude black and white drawings of 3e Legere.

Regards - hopefully you had a good Christmas & a Happy New Year

Ian

[Sans-Souci]

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Rathaus+Elberfeld,+Neumarkt+10,+42103+Wuppertal/Rathaus+L%C3%BCneburg,+Am+Markt,+21335+L%C3%BCneburg/@52.2489653,7.4581415,8z/data=!3m2!4b1!5s0x47b8d7b23e5ab62f:0xad90cbb4292eb4ba!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x47b8d7b215e6e175:0xd40ce669975a4959!2m2!1d7.1464151!2d51.2590209!1m5!1m1!1s0x47b1ddc5e55ffe05:0x6f8277206f52b97b!2m2!1d10.4075734!2d53.2502648!3e2?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MTIwOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D