Saxon army at Danzig 1807

[HKDW]

Here an Interims Officer Rock of 1806, quite en vogue with me

[HKDW]

Markus

so you have also the Sauerweid series of 1809? Great news then.
As for the ample cut - yes this is the most notable difference to the French uniforms, but otherwise?

[HKDW]

I would agree for the difference in the coat in 1806 but not in 1792 when Scharnhorst should have written the article (in case I do understand this correctly?)
I got the information, thanks a lot.

[admin]

To view the rear of the Saxon coat about the turn of 18th century I attach another plate of the "unauthered" series about Saxon uniforms 1796-1806 ... it shows a corporal of the line regiment Prinz Anton Friedrich, and is a nice proove for the ample cut of the suit.

HKDW: regarding the uniform series, I mustn't consult Edmund, as I have almost all Saxon uniform series in high resolution colour pictures (most of them published on Napoleon Online)

Nice regards
Markus Stein

P.S. Janek, please send me the texts you have added here, I'll add them in a bigger image (my Email: stein@napoleon-online.de)

[Sas]

Bullshit or not Scharnhorst writes in addition to "altfrankisch" that Saxon-unifom cut was worn at the begining of the XVIII century by most of the armies. So I assume he means cut presented on the picture I have attached. But it's the best way to read it personally so I send you whole article (please cofirm If you recive it - sometimes mails send abroad are blocked by anti-vir programs).
About cut Prussian and Saxon. I'll ask my friend for photo of Prussian uniform, and I'll attach picture of Saxon Rock I have. Then I think everything would be clear. I understand it's hard to describe all differences via forum so I think that picture would be very helpful.
Saoxn officers.... well once again I only quote what Funck has written. I assume that he was quite aware of these arising problems among Saxon offiziercorps.

Janek

[HKDW]

Altfränkisch - means Old French, like ancien regime - the cut is a bit more ample than in Revolutionary times, which is in my opinion bullshit, there the cut of the 1780 uniforms of the French was already tight and elegant and en vogue.
There is in my view no big differences between the cut of cloth of the Saxons in 1792 and the Prussian uniform of 1792, straight lapels usually are lapes like in Bardin uniform which can be buttoned striaght to the waist, the Prussians had this kind in 1806, the French did not and the Saxons did also not have this.
I think the only real difference might be that the cut of the Saxon uniform of 1806 was more ample and more in the direction of 1792 than the rest of the other armies.
For that reason the Saxon officers might feel not to be elegant, but they had an Interims Rock as well, which should be more tight fitting.

[Sas]

I'm back

HKDW - Please give me you e-mail, I'll send you whole text. It's not from Montbe.
Cut of the uniform... Well I cannot say basing on the photo, but one of member of De Capo reenacting group (It' was you who commanded Saxon troops at Jena? ) lend me their uniform wich was based on original (I assume "von Bunau" uniform) It has straight lapels. You can also see the contruction on the picture wich was given by Fred (Niesemuschell). I attach picture of Saxon infantrymen of Northen war - it is altfrankisch cut I think. I have also seen photos of original uniform of Prussian infantry from 1790's. They had rouded lapels. It's not the same cut.
And what about Funck memoires? He celarly states that Saxon officers suffered much from old-styled uniform. He even claims that beacuse of their uniform they were not able to contact with aristocracy or rich city merchants. Most of their free time they spend drinking beer with poor people.

Best regards
Janek

[HKDW]

Sas

I would need the text bigger, despite magnifying option it is difficult to read, it seems to be from Montbè?

As to Scharnhorst, in case he comments on 1791 uniform, the Prussian and Saxon were quite of identical style.

best regards

HK

[Sas]

Hi,

About shoulder strap: I think it's not a big problem to fix it in order to make uniform more comfortable. I think that soldiers could possibly add this to their Rocks. Such shoulder straps would hang both sabre/cartrige box and "knapscack" straps. It would be very practical. On "schutzen" plate I have attached there are also two shoulder straps.
Hovel painted them coloured, perhaps (assuming that troops presented by him, were during changes), they forget about regulations as a result of separation from Saxony (as you mentioned they were organized like French troops). Mayby they just have such cloth.

About Weste: It's interesting and logical explanation. To save as much money as they could, it was more resonable to have separate sleeves and waiscoat. In winter they could just fix it, in summer, they could just take them away, and wear simple wastcoat.

About Scharnhorst: We just disagree and that's all we can say But I do not agree that Prussian uniformes were such old-styled as Saxon. Prussian contrary to Saxon had rounded lapels, Saxon had straight version (what I think Scharnhorts define as "altfrankisch"). As far as I know, Prussians wore also "false waistcoat's" (according to memoires I have red), what I think is a proof of modernizig their uniformes. If I remember they had also standing collar and shorter turnbacks.

One more remark: On Hovel's plates and on "schutzen" plate, soldiers wear "Patronaschenblech". I always thought that Saxon musketeer hadn't such decorations, do you think it's mistake?

Unfortunatelly I will not be avaidable till tuesday (I'm going to exercise with my Prussian collegues as part of preparations to Danzig battle, hihi I'm so happy that I'll wear my Saxon unfiform this weekend )

Best regards and nice weekend Kamerden!!
Janek

[HKDW]

Enthusiasts

Hm, stange, in my version of Zimmermann (Tradition hors series) ther is only one shoulder strap, one shoulder strap makes sense as long as the sabre is worn around the waist, only when the sabre is worn over the shoulder - a second shoulder strap should be added, or for the taste of symmetrie.

Again, I think the Saxon Army followed in the old days the style of the Prussian Army in that way (the Old Prussians has only one shoulder strap as well) Due to the cut of the cloth and fashion the shoulder strap was running across the shoulder blade and not usually visible from the front - nicely shown by Weiland.

The Zimmermann print is a bit suspect, he caries a back pack but where are the carrying straps - the artist forget them.

Sas

Thanks for the text of Scharnhorst, I disagree in your assesment that he was an expert about coats, I think he expressed his taste.

salut et fraternité

HK

[Fred]

Armée saxonne

Version Française :
Histoire de compliquer les choses, voici une planche d'après Zimmermann (les originaux sont d'après G. Dempsey en noir et blanc); la planche avec le numéro 38 est la copie faite par W. Aerts (la plus fiable). Il y a nettement deux pattes d'épaules. La 2e présente quelques différences notables.
Sas, je suis content que tu as apprécié les photos de l'habit !
Amitié à tout le monde
Fred

English version :
Just to complicate things, here is a board according to Zimmermann (originals are according to G. Dempsey in black and white); the board with the number 38 is the copy made by W. Aerts ( the most reliable ). There are sharply two shoulder flaps. The 2nd presents some considerable differences.
Sas, I am satisfied that you appreciated the photos of the dress!
Friendship to everybody
Fred

Deutsche Version
Um die Sachen, also ein Brett nach Zimmermann zu erschweren (die Originale sind nach G. Dempsey schwarzweiß); das Brett mit der Nummer 38 ist die von W gemachte Kopie. Aerts (die Zuverlässigste). Es geben deutlich zwei Schulterklappen. Die 2. stellt einige bemerkenswerte Unterschiede vor.
Sas bin ich zufrieden, daß du die Fotos der Kleidung geschätzt hast!
Freundschaft jedermann
Fred

Désolé mais je (mon logiciel) ne maitrise pas les autres langues

[Sas]

About Kittel I have nothing to add. Perhaps Montbe was wrong, errare humanum est
HKDW - I'm attaching 3 pages of Scharnhorst article. I think it's very realible source, he was somekind of military scientist of that period, he could see many uniforms of different nations.
Fred - for the first time in my life I see original Saxon uniform of that period!! Formidable!!
That's all for now, I have very less time, I will be avaidable this evening, then I will write a little more

J.

[Fred]

Hello
The officier's coats you're talking about, it's this one ?





The two photos are coming from the collection of my friend Edmund Wagner
Fred rost:

[Da Capo]

The „Kittel“ was an official equipment for the Saxon infantry. It was used to protect the real coat during marches, in the campaign and during normal duty (so it was usual in summer to wear waistcoat and “Kittel” only). When I remember me right the wearing time of such a Kittel was one year. The regiments received the linen as cloth and must produce the Kittels under their own supervision.
Reports talking about worn Kittels f.e. in the clashes at Schleiz and Saalfeld during the 1806 campaign (it is interesting that one old source (I think printed in 1807) is talking about worn Kittels for the French Light infantry in the clash of Saalfeld / also the Prussian artillery worn in the Winter 1813/14 as substitute for missing overcoats such linen Kittels).
If the Saxon army leaders have had the target to save money through the use of the coats for a longer time than Kittels as a protection are more necessary.

The waistcoats have had the possibility to tie the sleeves on and off (usual with leather strips) so it is normal to see both versions on old pictures.
At the end of the real (mostly not the official) wearing time old coats were transformed into waistcoats and sleeves and old waistcoats into caps (and probably gloves).

For the time around 1806 I have seen only one original Saxon coat (officier, Regiment Bünau between 1790/1806) but no original Saxon waistcoat until today.

[HKDW]

About the Saxon uniform coat, it was not more old fashioned than that of the French - apart of the standing up collar, the French continued to wear the lapels half open till autumn of 1813.

So, the Saxons could have continued that style but they chose to make the "mid modern" style of imitating straight lapels as other Confederation of the Rhine states did.

About Scharnohorst - how would he know about all coats in 1791 - did he do a study of all coats in Europe, I don't think so.
The Prussian coat in that time did not look that different to the Saxon one, so I would be interested why Scharnhorst came to that conclusion.

As for the Kittel, it was already worn in 1806 against the Prussians, but Da Capo is much more qualified that me to comment on this - also how widely they were worn - all regiments or only some.

Hovel is realy interesting - but in these quality one cannot comment on any details, a pity.