Die Elberfelder Bilderhandschrift: Bilder und Dokumente aus napoleonischer Zeit

[Kein Prinz]

France- Legére.
I have searched for this book, but all comes up are the late wars 13/14 era. Are the cited 'plates' available online?

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/196417231-die-elberfelder-bilderhandschrift

I am forlornly attempting to validate from Frederic Berjauds '3eme Legére' article the scene - "Fig. 2 Tambour de carabiniers et carabinier du 3e Léger en 1807 d'après Knoetel (Source : Lûneburger Bilderhandschrift)" on this Knötel copy of a sketch?

figure%202%20carabinier%20%20et%20tambour%203e%20Leger.jpg
Although perhaps technically unimportant in the scheme of things, I wonder IF brown bearskins would have been a local and recent acquisition in 1807.
Thanks for any advance in knowledge,
regards davew

[admin]

Dave,

das Buch ist eine sehr gute Aufbereitung der Elberfelder BS, allerdings hatte Peter damals nicht die Originaltafeln zur Verfügung. Ich durfte diese in der Kunstbibliothek fotografieren und habe diese online im Uniformenportal veröffentlicht.

Schöne Grüße
Markus Stein

[Sans-Souci]

The Lüneburger Bilderhandschrift, on which your image is based, survived only as a copy by Herbert Knötel, an has been published by Thomas Hemmann:

https://www.amazon.de/dp/3839171113

[Kein Prinz]

Dave,

das Buch ist eine sehr gute Aufbereitung der Elberfelder BS, allerdings hatte Peter damals nicht die Originaltafeln zur Verfügung. Ich durfte diese in der Kunstbibliothek fotografieren und habe diese online im Uniformenportal veröffentlicht.

Schöne Grüße
Markus Stein

Dank Marcus,
I still had the pages open so my thanks for a quick response!

I am at a complete loss to understand how the Knötel attribution and facsimile (and which one?) comes from those plates?
Plus the attribution to an 1807 style uniform is chaotic at best from an 1813 era reference.
And how does the mostly scholarly Berjaud permit such a confluence?

Ok I will close the enquiry as a dead-end for any attempt at accuracy to follow.

My best wishes to you for a happier New Year than ever before!
Dave

[Sans-Souci]

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Rathaus+Elberfeld,+Neumarkt+10,+42103+Wuppertal/Rathaus+L%C3%BCneburg,+Am+Markt,+21335+L%C3%BCneburg/@52.2489653,7.4581415,8z/data=!3m2!4b1!5s0x47b8d7b23e5ab62f:0xad90cbb4292eb4ba!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x47b8d7b215e6e175:0xd40ce669975a4959!2m2!1d7.1464151!2d51.2590209!1m5!1m1!1s0x47b1ddc5e55ffe05:0x6f8277206f52b97b!2m2!1d10.4075734!2d53.2502648!3e2?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MTIwOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

[Prince of Essling]

Hi Dave,

Please find attached merged copy of the two articles on Lûneburger Bilderhandschrift which featured in Zeitschrift Fur Heereskunde in the 1950s. This includes crude black and white drawings of 3e Legere.

Regards - hopefully you had a good Christmas & a Happy New Year

Ian

[Kein Prinz]

Muchos Gracias amigos.

It is Sunday here and I am off to the market for a large fish (Snapper) for lunch/ dinner and a smoking curry (not for me mind)- so this is just an acknowledgement for now gentlemen.
I suspected it was 'H' Kn but I didn't want to say it!
I'll get on translating the text as soon as I can when back.
Voltz and others cover the subject as well,

Danke schön
dave

[Prince of Essling]

From the German edition of the book on Lucien Rousselot's " Napoleons Armee 1800-1815"

[Kein Prinz]

From the German edition of the book on Lucien Rousselot's " Napoleons Armee 1800-1815"

Ian thank you once again!
And here we see the traction of copyists being copied by generations...

OK so I concur there is some confidence in the provenance of the source this time!
The 3e Legére elites were taken for the Grenadiers Réunis in 1803 and by the supposed date of this drawing, were in garrison nearer France after demobilisation of that corps in July 1806.

I was particularly drawn by the 'antique' nature of the drummers attire- old style 1800 shako, fittings etc; perhaps unusual that a musician/ bandsman in a tete-du-colonne role wouldn't have been given an updated uniform by the end of 1807, particularly when you see the up-to-date attributes of the other characters! He also displays unusual 'round/ Swedish cuffs sans buttons of flap, more like a surtout than an habit (but given the red revers) we have another quandry.

The blue veste worn by both is atypical as many legere regiments continued to issue/ wear white vests throughout the era.

[*Edit: I forgot to mention that this illustration very well omits the one point of the Voltz contemporary artowrk, that of red turnbacks a-la 'la garde' that these men supposedly wore in faux imitation. He also showed plumes on the rhs of bearskins- not an unknown variant as well !].

The 'garrison' nature of the scene, draws attention to the lack of scarlet braid and tassel on the carabiniers gaiters; the simple (single) headwear cords of all the unit, and blue cuffs with red cuff flaps also typical. A mix and match uniqueness to uniforms!

---

In a sort of takeover beyond the specific subject I feel the need to explain my modelling rationale that I developed a few years ago (2018/19) in trying to model the unknown, in this case the 10e Legere.

Where there are no definitive references that I have found for a regiment, and my sources such as Rousellot, Bucquoy, Toussaint, Detaille and many online, virtually always depict uniforms for 1808-10-12 than earlier; or are at least contradictory over details. La Sabretache notes their use of carabinier bearskins.

Because I'm being pedantic about them in 'accurate' uniforms I have used in my 'agile' pragmatic approach to completing the army, discretionary calls in order-
1- exact details where known;
2- earlier Revolution/ Consular uniform extended to early empire;
3- adopt a later variation known for the unit with sliding backdated effect;
4- adopt a known uniform for the next nearest known accurate regiment.

I've taken the plain 1801 shako with side plume for chasseurs (revised courtesy of HKW). Where known I'll throw in a sapeur; porte-aigles are always NCO's etc.

So I shall use the 'archaic' older uniform for a drummer and attributes of the carabinier for my 1805 models,
thank you for indulging my fanciful directions!

Regards to all,
dave

[Spaen]

Image_20251229_0001.jpg
Zur Intensivierung der Diskussion, hier mal ein Bildbetrag von keinem Experten für französische Uniformen!

[Kein Prinz]

Image_20251229_0001.jpg
Zur Intensivierung der Diskussion, hier mal ein Bildbetrag von keinem Experten für französische Uniformen!

Spaen, du schlauer Fuchs, natürlich hast du recht an allen Fronten!
Bitte seien Sie so freundlich, uns daran zu erinnern, was die "Kollektionen "dubois de l'etang" sind, da ich keinen definitiven Bezug dazu finden kann! [ Nein, ich schlucke nicht... Blinzeln ]

Natürlich wirft eine solche Illustration sofort Bedenken auf - die Perfektion, Definition und Vollständigkeit, von denen ein Großteil mit anderen "zeitgenössischen" Illustrationen im Widerspruch steht, wirft Bedenken auf.

Ich würde die Datierung ablehnen, es sei denn, die Darstellung von neu gekleideten Männern im Depot, und dies wird selten erklärt; die 1786 Mustergewohnheit Spitze für Einheiten, die zu dieser Zeit nicht in dieser Form existierte (und nie zuvor 1786 Muster als von einer Legere-Einheit getragen dargestellt); die nummerierte Shako-Platte, wo die meisten einen Bugle hatten; die 2/5ths- 3/5s Break in Plume, die nicht anderswo gesehen wird (1/3

Diese Angelexpedition ist dem 'Uniformes Blanc von 1806' sehr ähnlich - ein weiteres feines Durcheinander, das Sie uns in 'Olliy' gebracht haben ...

Aber dann knacke ich gerne einen Fall!

Ehrliche Grüße,
Dave

---

Spaen, you wily fox, of course your are right on all fronts!
Please be kind enough to remind us what the "collectiones "dubois de l'etang"" is, as I cannot find any definitive reference to it on line! [ No, I do not guggl... ]

Of course such an illustration immediately raises concerns- the perfection, definition and completeness, much of which is contradictory to other 'contemporary' illustrations, raises concerns.

I'd reject the dating, unless depiction of newly dressed men at the depot, and this is rarely explained; the 1786 pattern habit lace for units that did not exist in that form at that time (and never before seen 1786 pattern depicted as worn by any legere unit); the numbered shako plate where most had a bugle; the 2/5ths- 3/5ths break in plume that isn't seen elsewhere (1/3rd and 1/4s yes...); pointed red cuffs whereas every other 'contemporary' illustration shows blue Swedish cuff with red flaps etc according to my analysis... [however to highlight the variations the 2eme Legere apparently did wear this; and the 15e Legere had blue pointed cuffs pipe white, to complete the mix].

This fishing expedition is a lot like the 'uniformes blanc of 1806' - another fine mess you've got us into 'Olliy' ...

But then i do like cracking a case !

Honest regards,
dave

---

[Kein Prinz]

In consulting the Dawson books on the side, both the 2e and 3e Legeres archives have little material of use. Conjecturally using Martinet doesn't solve anything either.

For the 10e and 15 Legere, a little more information appears, but not anything conclusive for the pre-1807 period. Remarking that virtually every illustration of this famous Pratzen Heights conquering regiment (only two battalions) all fall post 1808. Despite having a very efficient Colonel Pouzet in charge, the regimental records are missing it seems.

“Reviewed on 17 October 1804, not an inch of chamois broadcloth existed, and no distinctions existed for the carabiniers.” “Exactly the same comments can be made of the 13 August 1805 inspection, except we note the 6 voltigeur cornets were armed with light cavalry mousquetons and were issued gibernes and belts.
Purchased in 1806 were:
100 pairs green epaulettes *
1,000 sword knots
1,750 pairs green epaulettes *
500 plumes
200 sword knots”

*Why this separation of the sum is peculiar, unless an error has been made with one or other description. I note that the illustration shows sappers in colpacks, not ourson,

For the 15e Legere (an ad-hoc attachment to Davouts III Corps) of Friants Division (part of which I am recreating now as well) there is again a paucity of confirmable information.

“Inspected on 8 December 1807, not an inch of chamois broadcloth existed in stores in 1805 or had been purchased since that date. Every man was wearing a schako. Despite not have any distinctions, the voltigeurs were armed with 326 dragoon muskets, with the officers and sous-officiers being issued 31 rifles. Only carabiniers, sous-officiers, drummers and cornets carried sabres.... “– it is clear the firearms had been exchanged on campaign, and the voltigeurs had lost their sabres, and had no chamois distinctions.”

This material may be protected by copyright. Excerpt From Napoleon’s Light Infantry and Artillery: Uniforms and Equipment -Paul L. Dawson

If this were true, it rather makes a lie out of the illustrations of Kieffer and Boisellier, both showing chamois or citron and scarlet attributes.
Regards dave

[Prince of Essling]

According to Digby-Smith's "Napoleon's Regiments - battle histories of the Regiments of the French Army 1792-1815" the 3e Legere was disbanded on 12 May 1814 but re-raised at once with the same number and the title "Du Dauphin". It was disbanded and re-raised again 13 March 1815. Title from 3 August 1815 Legion des Basses-Pyrenees; 1820 13e Regiment d'Infanterie Legere; 1854 88e Regiment d'Infanterie de Ligne.

The only historique I have found for the 3e Legere relates to World War 1 but I will have a look at Digby-Smith's suggestions for the successor regiments & will update this post if anything of interest is found.

[Spaen]

"According to Digby-Smith's "Napoleon's Regiments - battle histories of the Regiments of the French Army 1792-1815" the 3e Legere was disbanded on 12 May 1814 but re-raised at once with the same number and the title "Du Dauphin". It was disbanded and re-raised again 13 March 1815. Title from 3 August 1815 Legion des Basses-Pyrenees; 1820 13e Regiment d'Infanterie Legere; 1854 88e Regiment d'Infanterie de Ligne."

???????

Nach meiner Kenntnis geht die Geschichte des 3. Leichten auf die 1739 errichteten Royal-Corse zurück, 1816 Legion des Haute-Alpes und wurde 1855 das 78.Linienregiment

[Prince of Essling]

Spaen,

Looking at "Historiques des corps de troupe de l'armée française (1569-1900)", Berger Levrault & Cie (Editeurs) Paris 1900 Historiques des corps de troupe de l'armée française (1569-1900)... | Gallica I would have to agree with you.

But clearly some further very deep digging is necessary as under 3e Legere Digby-Smith has also (cannot believe he made it up):

Ancestors: Raised on 1 May 1778 from the infantry companies attached to the ChaCh des Pyrenees,
1793 1st Amalgamation (26 Dec) became 7e DBdeLe together with the old 1er Bn Vol de la Correze and the 2nd de la Dordogne
1796 2nd Amalgamation (5 Mar) became the 3DBdeLe
1801 by decree of 7 Oct was disbanded
1803 reraised as 3e Legere.
etc etc as in my earlier post above.