trageweise des Karabiners auf Vorposten bei der französische (leichten) Kavallerie

[aba]

Ich habe dann einen Besuch in Paris noch einmal für Detailfotos des interessanten Bildes von Schauenburg genutzt. Es ist ja wirklich erstaunlich was Handys heute können.

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[Kein Prinz]

Hallo alle zusammen,

Ich habe mir das jetzt mal in Ruhe durch gelesen.
Das stimmt schon was Tellensohn da schreibt. In dem Link von Sans-Souci steht ganz klar das die Waffe nur in die linke Hand gelegt wird und der Kolben unter den rechten Arm kommt um das Gewicht auszugleichen.
Also, ganz links geht ja nicht wenn ich den Kolben unter dem rechten Arm habe.
Nur bei den Dragonern steht das sie den Haken wieder einhängen mussten, allerdings erst wenn die Waffe wieder in den Schuh geschoben wurde.
Schossen die Dragoner mit ausgehängter Waffe ? Leider steht dazu nichts.

Das nur zur Info,

Grüsse vom Voltigeur

Regarding the latter question - "Nur bei den Dragonern steht das sie den Haken wieder einhängen mussten,"
a recent post by Jonas De Neef's Napoleon Chronicles gives us this gem of first hand, contemporary experience from 1807-

This light also allowed us to distinguish a line of enemy cavalry that had advanced and positioned itself opposite us, in order to cover the retreat and stop us in case we attempted to attack. As we were unaware of this, when we saw this cavalry advancing towards us, we performed a remarkable manoeuvre that, to my knowledge, has never been repeated.

Our exhausted horses were stuck in mud up to their chests, and as it was physically impossible for us to advance any faster than at a slow and painful pace, we were instructed to sheathe our sabres, take up our loaded muskets, and were ordered to allow the enemy to approach to within twenty paces without firing, because at that distance we would be able to see the enemy cavalry clearly enough to ensure that every shot was aimed at either the rider or the horse, and as soon as the volley had been fired, we would quickly sling our muskets over our shoulders, immediately draw our sabres and advance on the enemy.

Unfortunately, the enemy had no intention of attacking us, and we had no opportunity to estimate the effect that this manoeuvre would necessarily have produced, and I have no doubt that it would have been successful against a troop which, believing it was attacking cavalry, would have found itself fired upon at point-blank range as if by infantry and immediately charged by cavalry, when this fire would inevitably have brought death, confusion and perhaps terror to its ranks.

I consider this a momentous citation of period abilities and command in the otherwise unregarded '22nd Dragoon Regiment' . I note Martinien doesn't even record the regiment in action in 1806 at all!

Another note from the same, in the 'explorative period of the battle:

It was on this small plain that we stood in battle array when our scouts opened fire on Russian uhlans. Their presence indicated that enemy forces were on the other side of the woods. We immediately rolled up our coats and slung them over our shoulders [en banderole], as was customary whenever we encountered the enemy, a practice that saved the lives of many men.

Again an enlightening comment on operational matters!

Regards
davew

[HKDW]

zur Frage der auf den Rücken gehängten Dragoner Gewehre, da tauchen doch zeitgenössische Bilder auf, ob das nun im Gefecht gemacht worden ist? Kann ich nicht beurteilen, aber warum sonst solche Darstellungen BNUS1 197.jpg

[Prince of Essling]

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Above from "Collection de tous les uniformes de l'armée de Buonaparte, Louis Maleuvre"

[Spaen]

Zur Abrundung der Diskussion zwei Varianten der Vorpostentätigkeit. Zu Pferd wie hier diskutiert, aber im durchschnittenen Gelände doch eher zu Fuß mit individuellen Trageweisen der Waffe.



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[Kein Prinz]

zur Frage der auf den Rücken gehängten Dragoner Gewehre, da tauchen doch zeitgenössische Bilder auf, ob das nun im Gefecht gemacht worden ist? Kann ich nicht beurteilen, aber warum sonst solche Darstellungen BNUS1 197.jpg

HKW,
Why indeed?
This such appearance is expressly detailed by Inspectors-Generaux in Dawsons Napoleonic books, as a frequent 'string' where belts and carabines should have been.

Similarly, other such 'belts and carabines'. Specifically the 1er Dragons in 1802 were still utilising 'light cavalry' saddlery and belts of a pale yellow shade. Such leathers were continued to be bought (at the depot) into 1803 or perhaps 1804- so I will accept that they had these variations (duration 4 years) for some time including 1805 campaigns that I am modelling figures for. One has to accept that every dragoon had both habits (1802-1804 styles) AND surtouts as well.

A wonderful print/ engraving.

Above from "Collection de tous les uniformes de l'armée de Buonaparte, Louis Maleuvre"

With all due respect Ian I feel you have given us pause for thought. The three types of Martinet (also used in part by Dawsons) plates, the first in particular, shows nothing at all of the method of attachment/ restraint of arms. The other two do so in various forms.

The cut and paste (paint) manner of Martinets works does leave a lot of informaility and it is disingenous of Dawson to once criticise many of them, then include them as copybook fillers in his works (his or publishers I know not).

Every dragoon officer certainly didnt use the Guard Dragoons style of housse that he represents. Actually not even the Guard Dragoons themselves in 1806 when they first went to war.

Frankly I've never seen the name 'Louis Maleuvre' before.

To round off the discussion, two variants of outpost activity. On horseback as discussed here, but in the average terrain on foot with individual ways of carrying the weapon.

Two nice prints, with the hussar showing the methodology clearly. Illustrator I feel I should know but can't decipher the text.

JOB I cannot take seriously any longer due to his collusion with Knötel DJ and others on 'sharing' ideas- there seem too many anomalies between them at that period of time. Though the exagerated effect of the loose musketoon strap does seem a more realistic approach if indeed these were worn over the troopers back.

Of course those of us have no fear, as few if any regular models get depicted this way!

Salut to all...
davew

[Prince of Essling]

@davew,

The Hussar print is by Eugène Leliepvre.
Regards

Ian