Saxon army at Danzig 1807

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  • Sas
    Neuer Benutzer
    Soldat
    • 16.04.2007
    • 21

    Saxon army at Danzig 1807

    Hello Everyone!
    I’m new member of this forum. I come from Poland but I’m interested in Saxon army (I even reenact it). Unfortunatelly after 9 years of teaching German language, I’m not able to build correctly even one simple sentence, so please forgive me using english language on German forum You may answer in German, with dictionary’s helpful hand I would read it.
    But ad rem. A few weeks ago in Dazig city museum a series of unpublisheg pictures was found (see below). On one of them Saxon infantry is shown. As you can see the cut of uniform is very interesting, it’s the same as for Prussian infantry in 1806.
    My first conclusion was “what a mistake!! Howel (author) must be an idiot” BUT :
    Firstly: Author have seen Saxon troops during besige of Danzig, so he should be quite realible source... Mr Howel painted also Baden and Polish troops. For Baden and Polish troops there is nothing new (exept for some details)... so could he make mistake only while painting Saxon troops?
    Secondly: I have seen mr Sauerweid picture presenting Saxon army in 1809 resting in march. Quality of the copy I have is not very good. But If I’m not wrong, soldiers wear uniforms similiar to these painted by Howel. Perhaps I’m wrong or mayby Sauerweid picturtes are not the most realible source, but they made my confused.
    Thirdly: I have also found painting of sige of Danzig with Saxon infantry on the foreground. I could see only their backs, but what was interesting, that they had coloured turnbacks. Unfortunatelly it was attacched to old book in bad condition so I couldn’t make copy.
    The question is: Do you find this painting one big mistake or it has some historical value?
    Best regards
    Angehängte Dateien
  • admin
    Administrator
    Colonel
    • 30.09.2006
    • 2697

    #2
    Sas,

    welcome to the forum ... and it's no problem in talking in English, as nearly all of us understand English.

    Did you check the different contemporary sources, I published about the Saxon army of 1806? You find a complete list (with regularly newly published series) at http://www.napoleon-online.de/html/z...formserie.html

    For the Saxons I published:

    http://www.napoleon-online.de/html/hess_sachsen.html (Hess 1806)

    http://www.napoleon-online.de/html/hess_sachsen.html (Sauerweid 1810)

    http://www.napoleon-online.de/html/s...811_corps.html (probably Christoph Bommer 1811)

    Soon to be published: the Meerbohm for the 1806 uniforms.

    The Hess confirms your newly found series ... which is really interesting - do you have colour pictures of it? And is it possible to publish the complete series? Of course I'd pay the costs for the (digital) images to the museum or archive in Danzig/Gdansk ... and: are there more uniform series?

    Nice regards
    Markus stein

    P.S. the polish people here are very competent and helpful for us Germans, congratulations to your research efforts!
    "Wenn wir geboren werden, weinen wir, weil wir diese große Narrenbühne betreten" (King Lear) ... jedem also sein ganz persönliches (Hof-) Narrenleben

    Kommentar

    • HKDW
      Erfahrener Benutzer
      Colonel
      • 02.10.2006
      • 2976

      #3
      No Hess is not confirming the black and white print, Hovels did copy an extensive series of Sauerweid about the Saxon Army of 1809 and did change some details, so forget Hovels and concentrate on Sauerweid.

      The cut of the Saxon infantry was different to the Prussian infantry of 1806.

      In 1809 the Saxons hooked down the lapels as far as possible to create the immage of a straight lapel cut like the Prussians in 1806 but it still looked differently. They carried the packs on the back already.

      Kommentar

      • Fred
        Benutzer
        Caporal
        • 09.10.2006
        • 67

        #4
        Armée saxonne

        Bonjour Sas
        Ce matin, je t'ai adressé un message sur ta messagerie du site. Pense à le consulter.
        Je travaille depuis des années sur l'armée saxonne et j'ai pu balayer pratiquement toutes les sources sur ce sujets; mais il y a toujours des éléments nouveaux. La preuve en est ton document. Concernant la planche en noir et blanc que tu nous proposes, il y a différents éléments qui doivent être soulignés. En tout premier lieu, dès le passage des saxons dans les rangs français (et même un peu avant pendant la campagne aux côté de la Prusse), on constate des modifications dans la tenue, sans doute par influence, mais surtout pour adapter la tenue au modèle français (c'est mon avis, car je doute de l'influence prussienne à cette époque). On prend donc l'habitude de fermer les revers, et le col est taillé de manière plus échancrée. Cependant, l'habit, comme le montre Sauerweid, demeure légèrement ouvert sur la taille. Quant à la buffleterie (banderole porte giberne et ceinturon porte sabre), elle est portée croisée sur la poitrine. La conséquence, c'est l'apparition d'une deuxième patte d'épaule. On prend également l'habitude de porter le manteau roulé par dessus le havresac, comme dans l'armée française. Ci joints dessins extraits de mes publications.
        Ce qui me pose problème sur ton document, c'est le fait que les habits représentés ont les revers droits, comme après 1810, et que par ailleurs, les retroussis sont de la couleur distinctive. Pourtant, même après 1810, ils sont blancs et bordés d'un passepoil. De même, les pattes d'épaules sont également de la couleur distinctive, alors qu'elles devraient être 1/ au moins blanches en 1806 2/passepoilées après cette date (?) ou en tous cas à partir de 1810.
        Par ailleurs, il faut bien distinguer chaque personnage :
        A gauche, nous avons un musicien, pour lequel il n'y a pas grand chose à dire, compte tenu de sa position et du fait que l'image est en noir et blanc; au centre, un mousquetaire ? Ne semble t'il pas avoir un petit plumet sur le chapeau ? Et a t'il un ceinturon et le sabre comme le 3e personnage à droite qui lui le porte à la taille. Sur la giberne, remarquons la plaque en forme d'écu, surmontée d'une couronne? Cela ne rappelle t'il pas la période 1810-1813? Pour le 3e personnage, le sabre est doté d'une dragonne apparemment blanche. La poignée du sabre indique un modèle en usage parmi les grenadiers avant 1810; ou alors parmi les mousquetaires à partir de 1810. L'auteur a t'il voulu représenter ici un Sous officier ?
        Je ne me penche pas sur le cas des cuirassiers, qui me paraissent curieux, et pour lesquels j'émets de sérieux doutes.
        Questions : le document indique l'année 1807. A quelle époque a t'il été effectivement réalisé ? Ne pourrait on pas y voir une interprétation possible, par anticipation, du futur réglement de 1810 ? A ce moment là, l'auteur aurait maintenu le port du chapeau, alors qu'il aurait fallu placer des shakos, et il nous présenterait alors des tenues de transition. De toute manière, même en partant sur cette hypothèse, les guêtres et la manière de porter le ceinturon ne sont pas conformes. Autre hypothèse : il a utilisé une base qu'il a ensuite plus ou moins bien adaptée en lui donnant le titre indiqué. Ce qui permettrait de comprendre les différentes erreurs et justifierait en partie l'aspect "prussien" de ces soldats.
        Pour avoir une plus ample idée de la fiabilité de ce document, il faudrait voir l'intégralité de la série et de préférence en couleur.
        En conclusion, bien que travaillant sur l'Armée saxonne depuis près de 15 ans, il y a encore bien des choses à découvrir et très certainement des documents qui demeureront inexpliqués, à défaut d'être explicables. J'en veux pour preuve une série de dessins (cf pièce jointe) qui se trouvaient dans le passé à la Bibliothèque du Musée de l'Empéri : les tenues représentées ne correspondent à rien de connu !
        A vos réponses et très amicalement
        Frédéric Berjaud.
        Ps : texte écrit en français et traduit à l'aide d'un logiciel.

        Hello Sas
        This morning, I sent you a message on your freight forwarding{*messaging*} of the site. Think of consulting him{*it*}.
        I work for years on the Saxon army and I was able to sweep{*annihilate*} practically all the sources on it subjects; but there are always new elements. The proof is your document. Concerning the board in black and white whom you propose us, there are various elements which must be underlined. At first, from the passage of the Saxon in the French rows{*ranks*} (and even a little before during the campaign in side of the Prussia), we notice modifications in the holding{*dress*}, doubtless by influence, but especially to adapt the holding{*dress*} to the French model (it is my opinion, because I doubt the Prussian influence in this time). We thus get used to closing lapels{*reverses*}, and the collar is cut in a more indented way. However, the dress, as shows him{*it*} Sauerweid, remains slightly opened on the size. As for the buffleterie (banner carries{*wears*} cartridge pouch and belt carries{*wears*} sabre), it is carried{*worn*} crossed on the breast. The consequence, it is the appearance of the second shoulder flap. We also get used to carrying{*wearing*} the coat rolled by above the haversack, as in the French army. This joined drawings extracted from my publications.
        What raises me problem on your document, it is the fact that the represented clothes have the right{*straight*} lapels{*reverses*}, as after 1810, and that besides, lapel is of the distinctive colour. Nevertheless, even after 1810, they are white and lined with a passepoil. Also, shoulder flaps are also of the distinctive colour, while they should be 1/at least white in 1806 2 / passepoilées after this date (?) or in any cases from 1810.
        Besides, it is necessary to distinguish every person:
        To the left, we have a musician, for whom he big there thing{*matter*} to be said, considering his position and whom the image is in black and white; in the centre, a musketeer? Seems you he{*it*} not to have a small plume on the hat? And has you he a belt and the sabre as the 3rd person to the right who he carries{*wears*} him{*it*} in the size. On the cartridge pouch, let us notice the patch in the form of ecu, surmounted by a crown? It calls back{*reminds*} you he{*it*} not the period 1810-1813? For the 3rd person, the sabre is endowed with an apparently white wrist-strap. The handle of the sabre indicates a used model among pomegranate trees before 1810; or then among the musketeers from 1810. The author has you he wanted to represent here one to preside{*officiate*}?
        I do not bend over the case of the cuirassiers, who seem to me curious, and for whom{*which*} I emit{*utter*} severe doubts.
        Questions: the document indicates year 1807. In what time has you he{*it*} effectively realized? Could not one not see a possible interpretation, by anticipation, of the future regulation{*payment*} there of 1810? At this moment there, the author would have maintained the port{*bearing*} of the hat, while it would have been necessary to place shakoes, and he would present us then dresses of transition. Anyway, even by leaving on this hypothesis, gaiters and way of carrying{*wearing*} the belt are not in accordance. Other hypothesis: he{*it*} used a base which he{*it*} then more or less well adapted by giving him{*her*} the indicated title. What would allow to understand{*include*} the various errors and would justify partially the "Prussian" aspect of these soldiers.
        To have a more ample idea of the reliability of this document, it would be necessary to see the completeness of the series and rather in colour.
        In conclusion, although working on the Saxon Army since about 15 years, there are some more things to be discovered and very certainly documents which will remain unexplained, for lack of being explicable. I want for proof a series of drawings (cf accompanying document) which were in past in the Library of the Museum of Empéri: the represented dresses correspond to nothing known!
        In your answers and very friendly
        Frédéric Berjaud.
        Ps: text writes in French and translates by means of a software.
        Angehängte Dateien

        Kommentar

        • Fred
          Benutzer
          Caporal
          • 09.10.2006
          • 67

          #5
          Dessins sur l'Armée Saxonne

          Kommentar

          • Fred
            Benutzer
            Caporal
            • 09.10.2006
            • 67

            #6
            Armée Saxonne suite

            Kommentar

            • Da Capo
              Erfahrener Benutzer
              Adjudant
              • 23.10.2006
              • 836

              #7
              The drawing is underlined with Saxon infantry but it shows – like HKW wrote already - a Prussian style.

              All original Uniforms of this time have white turnbacks (because the lining is white) and a white dragoon only on the left shoulder. The lapels are only closed between the collar and the middle of the breast. The collar lied down.

              The drawing shows fully closed lapels (the first reports of closed lapels coming out of the 1809 campaign, as you can see on your second plate), coloured turnbacks, coloured dragoons on both shoulders and a stand up collar.
              The sword belt is wearing over the coat (unusual in the Saxon army and to imitate the French they should wear the sword belt over the right shoulder like they done this in the 1809 campaign). You see no waistcoat which you must see.
              The sword seems to be the Mle.1808 (for musketeers). In the Saxon infantry only ranks worn the sword tassel (possibly Gefreite worn the tassel).
              I cannot indentify the plate on the cartridge box. It seems to be a little similar to the box plates of the Grenadier Guard from 1810. Musketeers have had no plates.

              To bring this black and white drawing in the right context it is necessary to know:
              When had the artist drawn this?
              When was the drawing coloured and who did it?
              Which troops were at this time in or near Danzig?

              If you cannot answer these questions you cannot use this drawing as a source.
              Wenn der Feind in Schußweite ist, bist Du es auch. Vergiss dabei nie, dass Deine Waffe vom billigsten Anbieter stammt.

              Kommentar

              • Fred
                Benutzer
                Caporal
                • 09.10.2006
                • 67

                #8
                Réponse à Capo

                Bonjour Capo
                A qui s'adresse votre réponse ? A Sas ou à moi ? Dans le deuxième cas, nos conclusions se recoupent, ce qui confirme le fait que :
                1/ Il faut voir le document en couleur
                2/ Le reste de la série doit également être analysé pour vérifier sa fiabilité.
                Amicalement
                Frédéric

                Hello Capo
                Whom addresses your answer? In Sas or in me? In the second case, our conclusions confirm each other, what confirms the fact that:
                1/It is necessary to see the document in colour
                2/The rest of the series must be also analyzed to verify its reliability.
                Friendly
                Frédéric


                Troupes ayant pris par à la campagne de 1807.
                D’après Sauzey étaient prévues les troupes suivantes, soit deux brigades sous les Généraux Majors von Oebschelwitz et von Glaffey[1] :
                - 8 Bataillons d’infanterie à environ 640 hommes chacun :
                - Bataillon de grenadiers von Süssmilch[2], (Prinz Clemens et Oebschelwitz).
                - Bataillon de grenadiers von Cerrini[3], (von Sänger et von Low).
                - 2 bataillons Prinz Anton, sous le Colonel Müller von Berneck.
                - 2 bataillons von Sänger, sous le Colonel von Larisch.
                - 2ème bataillon Prinz Maximilian sous le Lieutenant colonel Vogel.
                - 1er bataillon von Bevilaqua, sous le Colonel von Hartitzsch.
                - 5 escadrons de cavalerie à environ 150 hommes chacun :
                - Cuirassiers König (ex Kurfürst Kürassiers), 4 escadrons, sous le Colonel Petrikowski.
                - Escadron combiné de Chevau-légers sous les ordres du Major von Schindler, composé de 90 hommes des Chevau-légers Prinz Johann, 60 hommes des Chevau-légers von Polenz.
                - 1 détachement d'artillerie (2 batteries, sous les ordres des Capitaines Kirstein et Sander), 12 canons.

                D’après l’ouvrage de Heinrich August Verlohren : "Stammregister un Chronik der Kur und Königlich Sächsischen Armee, von 1670 bis zum Regim des Zwamzigstem Jahrhunderts", Carl Beck, Leipzig, 1910, nous avons pu établir une liste des Corps qui auraient participé à la campagne de 1807. Il s’agit de :
                - Bataillon de grenadiers von Süssmilch (Prinz Clemens et Oebschelwitz).
                - Bataillon de grenadiers von Cerrini (von Sänger et von Low).
                - 2 bataillons Prinz Anton à Danzig. Les grenadiers sont en Silésie au sein du Bataillon de grenadiers von Steindel.
                - 2ème bataillon Prinz Maximilian sous le Lieutenant colonel Vole, à Danzig.
                - 2 bataillons von Sänger à Danzig.
                - 1 bataillon de von Low en Silésie, le 2ème étant affecté à la garde de la frontière. Grenadiers en Silésie, au sein du Bataillon de Grenadiers von Steindel.
                - 2 bataillons de Niesemeuschel.
                - Régiment König : Garnison de Dresde. Les mousquetaires gardent les frontières de la Silésie.

                Pas de traces du Régiment Bevilaqua. Celui-ci est pourtant donné comme faisant également partie du Corps de Lannes, après la prise de Danzig et la dissolution du Corps de Lefebvre.
                Il faut aussi ajouter qu’un escadron des Gardes du Corps, trois escadrons des Chevau-légers Prinz Johann sous les ordres du Colonel Feilitzsch furent détachés pour assurer la surveillance et la couverture de la frontière silésienne. Toutes les troupes désignées pour cette mission, d’ailleurs, regagnèrent leurs garnisons au début du mois d’août.
                En fait, pour la cavalerie, vers la fin de décembre 1806, 4 escadrons saxons, soit 3 de cuirassiers et 1 de chevau-légers, avaient été attachés à la Division d'Oudinot. Cette division arriva à Posen, où se réunissaient les troupes saxonnes, le 1er janvier. Ces troupes constituèrent par la suite la Division Polenz. Il faut noter que dans l’Historique Régimentaire du Régiment d’infanterie Prinz Maximilian, on trouve 4 escadrons au Régiment de Cuirassiers König[4].


                [1] Sauzey a utilisé comme source l’ouvrage de Schuster et Francke : «Geschichte der Sächsischen Armee», volume III.

                [2] Plus tard, Bataillon von Winkelmann.

                [3] Plus tard, Bataillon von Larisch.

                [4] "Geschichte des Königl. Sächs. 6. Infanterie Regiments N° 105 und seine Vorgeschichte 1701-1887", Leipzig, 1887.

                Kommentar

                • Fred
                  Benutzer
                  Caporal
                  • 09.10.2006
                  • 67

                  #9
                  Réponse à Capo (Suite)

                  D'après le journal du Lieutenant Moritz :
                  Etat général des différentes parties du Corps d’armée de Sa Majesté le Roi de Saxe qui composent le contingent destiné à joindre la Grande Armée.

                  Commandant en Chef, Lieutenant général von Polenz.
                  Aides de camp, Major et Quartier maître von Egidy, Capitaine von Gersdorff.
                  Brigade major, Lieutenant von Geobrig.
                  Adjoint, Lieutenant Moritz.
                  Total Etat-major général : 22 hommes et 7 chevaux..

                  1ère Brigade : Commandant en Chef, Major général von Oebschelwitz.
                  Aide de camp, Capitaine von Hacke.
                  Officier d’ordonnance, Lieutenant von Langenau.
                  - Bataillon de grenadiers von Cerrini, Major von Cerrini, 601 hommes.
                  - 1er bataillon du Régiment Bevilaqua, Colonel von Hartitzsch, 601 hommes.
                  - Régiment Prinz Anton, Lieutenant colonel Müller von Berneck, 1195 hommes[5].
                  2ème Brigade : Commandant en Chef, Major général von Glaffey.
                  Aide de camp, Lieutenant Roitzsch.
                  Officier d’ordonnance, Lieutenant Roos.
                  - Bataillon de grenadiers von Süssmilch, Major von Süssmilch, 601 hommes.
                  - Régiment von Sänger, Colonel von Larisch, 1197 hommes.
                  - 2ème bataillon du Régiment Prinz Maximilian, Lieutenant colonel Vogel, 598 hommes.
                  Total de l’infanterie : 4793 hommes.
                  Brigade de cavalerie : Major général von Besser :
                  - 4 escadrons des Cuirassiers du Roi, sous le Lieutenant-colonel Petrikowski, 687 hommes et 649 chevaux.
                  - 1 escadron des Chevau-légers Prinz Johann, sous le Major von Schindler, 199 hommes et 190 chevaux.
                  Total de cavalerie : 886 hommes et 839 chevaux.
                  Artillerie :
                  - 1ère Batterie, sous le capitaine Kirstein, 75 hommes, 4 pièce de 8 et 2 obusiers de 4.
                  - 2ème batterie, sous le Capitaine Sander, 75 hommes, 4 pièces de 8 et 2 obusiers de 4.
                  - Parc de Réserve : 150 hommes.
                  Total de l’artillerie : 300 hommes.

                  A cet effectif, il faut ajouter les différents Trains :
                  - Etat-major général : 9 hommes et 15 chevaux.
                  - Infanterie : 52 hommes et 184 chevaux.
                  - Cavalerie : 14 hommes et 36 chevaux.
                  Artillerie : 289 hommes et 549 chevaux.
                  Administration : 125 hommes et 248 chevaux.
                  Total des Trains : 489 hommes et 1032 chevaux.
                  [5] D’après l’Historique Régimentaire, le Régiment, depuis le 1er février, faisait partie de la Brigade du Général major von Glaffey. "Geschichte 4. Infanterie Regiments N° 103», Dresde, 1909.

                  Kommentar

                  • Sas
                    Neuer Benutzer
                    Soldat
                    • 16.04.2007
                    • 21

                    #10
                    Thank you very much for answers!

                    “Did you check the different contemporary sources, I published about the Saxon army of 1806?”
                    Ye I did. I have very carefully studied all these paintings, I have also consulted with Reinhold Muller’s pictures, Knotel, and much more drawings wich authors are not known.

                    “do you have colour pictures of it? And is it possible to publish the complete series? Of course I'd pay the costs for the (digital) images to the museum or archive in Danzig/Gdansk ... and: are there more uniform series?”

                    I don’t have coloured version of Hovel’s pictures. Blac-white copy was given me by my collegue who works for Danzig museum. If you want I may give you contact to him. As far as I know, the series includes Saxon, Baden, Polish and French troops, but perhaps there is something more. I must admit I don’t know. But my collegue does If you want contact him please inform me in pv Oh and don’t worry he speaks English very well.

                    Fred:
                    I agree with all your remarks. I was very suspicious about the picutre, for me it seems not realible. I’m attaching Howels Polish troops. Exept for stranghe Greatcoat with huge buttons it seems to be quite normal.
                    I must admit, that saxon uniformes of 1809 campaign were unknown to me. I have only few pitures of Saxon infantry of this time (attached - see especially Saxon “schutzen” - they look ennormusly).
                    Unfortunatelly I cannnot answer all your doubts, my collegue claims, that the author was a French soldier who participated at the sige of Danzig, and that he make whole series of such paintings. Perhaps he’s wrong, mayby that Hovel paitnted them after 1807 campaign, and drawed Saxon troops as he remembered them.
                    Thak you for tables! I must admit that I’m suprised by the fact, that these uniformes have standing coolar. As for Hess plates, and copy of original Rock, I was given, it was obvious for me that their collars were rolled down and festen under lapels. I thought that standing collars were worn only by officers (according to Hess plates). But perhaps it was common to “unfesten” collars, and to roll them up.
                    And one more remark. As far as I know, Saxon troops like all of the armies, apart from “Knapsack” in “campaign uniform” wore linien sack (I don’t know haw to say it in English or German) placed under Knapsack, so on te left shoulder I think should be places two stripes.

                    And one more thing. I have found memoires of Polish soldier, who served in Saxon army during 1809 campaign. He served in Inginieur Corps, and then he transferred to Garde du Corps. He describes that when his French collegue saw him, he was laughing because of his old-fashioned uniform wich remembered times of Louis XV (whats interesting he describes very carefully Prussian uniform, claimig for eg. that they woer “false waistcoats”). Scharnhorst in his article (dated on 1791) also states that Saxons had old fashined, unpractical uniformes of “Altfrankisch” cut (whatever AltFrankisch means).

                    You have said that Saxons in 1806 camapign were under French influence. I think that even Prussian army of these times was under French ifluence, even more than Saxony. The had shorter turnbacks, standing collars, straight lapels, as far as I know tehre were even plans of replacing bicorns by shakos (but campaign of 1806 has scrapped these plans ). Saxony I think was very resistent in introducing new uniformes. As I read in Funck’s memoires Saxon courthouse was very closed for any innovation, every exeption from regulated uniform was penalised.

                    Best Regards
                    Janek Snopkiewicz

                    Link to Polish uniformes by Hovel:
                    Unlimited space to host images, easy to use image uploader, albums, photo hosting, sharing, dynamic image resizing on web and mobile.
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                    Kommentar

                    • HKDW
                      Erfahrener Benutzer
                      Colonel
                      • 02.10.2006
                      • 2976

                      #11
                      Sauerwied published two series about the Saxon campaign of 1809, one published in 1809, the other in 1810, he is very precise for a lot of details and very convincing.
                      In Hull - obviously copies of this series was made - with changes.

                      Markus should visit the best collection in private hand for such cases, Edmund Wagner - who could show all those variations, both Hess and Sauerweid confirm the white turnbacks.

                      Sauerweid is not showing any bread bags (which were common in the Prussian and Russian Army) for 1809.

                      The coat, as Frederic describes (and I did already before) is closed down as much as possible to the front - but shows a small split at the belly, nicely observed by Sauerweid.

                      As for collars, Sauerweid shows standing collars.

                      I cannot see any influence of the French uniform style at all for the Prussians and Saxons in 1806, it is completly different, like in the Prussian army the so called open collar - difference to French Army, were it was closed, also the hanger around the waist - just to give some examples, the Saxon army had some unique features like the unique pistol / cartridge pouch for NCOs in 1806 not to speak about the side arms, sword knots according to companies and so on.
                      Also bear in mind that the Saxon Army did fight in 1806 in the so called Kittel, quite unique for a army of that time and - quite special as well.

                      Altfränkisch cut - means cut as the French Army (or French Royal Army, but in fact there is no great difference between the cut of the French tunic of 1789 or 1796) which was lagging behind all the rest of the infantry - the French infantry retained a very old fashioned out look in 1806 / 07 - while the rest went for simplified uniforms.

                      The Saxon Army of 1809 was in a transition copying the "new" French outlook (which the French introduced only in autumn 1813), some units had already shakos like the artillery, look again at Sauerweid plates of the 1809 campaign.

                      Also Weiland shows quite a good Saxon musketeer close to the 1809 time, with standing up collar and white turnbacks.

                      As for the immages Frederick supplied - on Sauerweid's plates I cannot see any horizontal strap conecting the carrying straps of the back pack - I am not aware that the Saxons had this in 1809 and I am missing the NCO stick.

                      Hopefully Da Capo - one of the best experts on the Saxon Army will comment on this as well.

                      Kommentar

                      • Fred
                        Benutzer
                        Caporal
                        • 09.10.2006
                        • 67

                        #12
                        Armée saxonne

                        Good evening!
                        Certainly, we did not stop discussing Saxons!! I thought of knowing most of the documents on this subject, and kept silent proposes it to us of new, Schutzen the holding{*dress*} of which is me only partially known. Formidable!
                        As regards the Saxon uniforms, it is true that the long and difficult evolutions were to accept; this way, the reform of 1810 was a fundamental stage. It is not thus abnormal to see Frenchmen laughing at the désuete holding{*dress*} of the Saxons. Besides, considering the lack of financial means, he was to be difficult to supply to the men{*people*} a holding{*dress*} corresponding to the regulation{*payment*}. What explains that in campaign, and especially from 1807, these equip themselves as he could him{*it*}, where from these unusual dresses. As for the modifications in the cup{*cutting*} of the dress, they understand. To carry{*wear*} an anachronistic holding{*dress*} was to be very painful for these poor Saxons, and if it was possible to modernize her{*it*} a little, why not? I do not say that the French influence played in 1806 (still that we see well the resemblances between the holding{*dress*} of the General Saxon and that of the French Generals under the Ancient Régime). On the other hand, she{*it*} is blatant from 1807.
                        I stay there there for this evening. Good evening in all and in very sincere friendship
                        Fred.

                        Kommentar

                        • HKDW
                          Erfahrener Benutzer
                          Colonel
                          • 02.10.2006
                          • 2976

                          #13
                          Fred

                          In case you use a translation program - it is better you write in French - this I understand much better than this English translation, donc alors encore une fois en francaise stp.

                          Kommentar

                          • Da Capo
                            Erfahrener Benutzer
                            Adjudant
                            • 23.10.2006
                            • 836

                            #14
                            Let us remember the start point. I understood that we have a drawing probably showing Saxon infantry in 1807 near Danzig. At the moment we discuss the outlook of the Saxon army in the 1809 campaign. We shall not mix this.
                            For the 1807 campaign Saxony have had a lot of problems to bring the demanded troops in the field. Nearly 100% of the cavalry horses were stolen by the French and a lot of guns and wagons were still captured. The French occupying power (they leaved the territory of the alliance partner Saxony not before 1810!), their occupation of the main depots and main assembly points of the army and – not to forget – their demands for money, food etc. made the whole things not easier.
                            So it has a very very low possibility that the Saxon troops received uniforms with a new style (f.e. standing up collars) for the 1807 campaign.
                            The Saxon infantry uniform was made from a much better cloth than that in the Prussian army and the Saxons have had a real waistcoat. The wearing time for this uniform was 3 years.
                            It is nearly sure that the Saxon troops going in the 1807 campaign with the same uniforms and the same equipment which they having in the 1806 campaign already. I have found no real sources to proof an opposite opinion. But I must also say that until today I have not the time to check the (if really existing!) documents in the Hauptstaatsarchiv in Dresden for the 1807 campaign because my main point over the last five years were the historical background for the tin figure diorama to the battle of nations and the Saxon Artillery.

                            Talking about an influence of the Saxon uniform style than we may not forget the Austrian Influence (see Grenadier caps).

                            Standing at 1807 and Danzig than it is clear that the Howel drawing showing what ever but no Saxon infantry during the siege of Danzig in 1807.
                            We must remember at this place that Saxon Infantry units were part of the occupying forces in the former Prussian fortresses Danzig and Glogau and marched from there in the 1812 campaign. These troops were organized and exercised after French regulations. So an influence on the Uniform style is possible. Here I must repeat my questions to the producing year of the drawing and the artist(s) (drawn and coloured at the same time or in different).

                            For 1809 I must contact my sources but this is a little different in case of a big lack in time. Sorry.

                            HKW – A bread bag was no official equipment in the Saxon army before 1810.
                            Wenn der Feind in Schußweite ist, bist Du es auch. Vergiss dabei nie, dass Deine Waffe vom billigsten Anbieter stammt.

                            Kommentar

                            • HKDW
                              Erfahrener Benutzer
                              Colonel
                              • 02.10.2006
                              • 2976

                              #15
                              Da Capo

                              Of course I agree that the 1807 uniform should be pretty much the same as 1806 - with Kittel?

                              Then in 1808 - Weiland - there seems to start the transisional period, standing collar, coat hooked down as much as possible, and finally the back packs on the back and then also the sabre belt worn over the shoulder.

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