Saxon army at Danzig 1807

[Fred]

Dessins sur l'Armée Saxonne

[Fred]

Armée saxonne

Bonjour Sas
Ce matin, je t'ai adressé un message sur ta messagerie du site. Pense à le consulter.
Je travaille depuis des années sur l'armée saxonne et j'ai pu balayer pratiquement toutes les sources sur ce sujets; mais il y a toujours des éléments nouveaux. La preuve en est ton document. Concernant la planche en noir et blanc que tu nous proposes, il y a différents éléments qui doivent être soulignés. En tout premier lieu, dès le passage des saxons dans les rangs français (et même un peu avant pendant la campagne aux côté de la Prusse), on constate des modifications dans la tenue, sans doute par influence, mais surtout pour adapter la tenue au modèle français (c'est mon avis, car je doute de l'influence prussienne à cette époque). On prend donc l'habitude de fermer les revers, et le col est taillé de manière plus échancrée. Cependant, l'habit, comme le montre Sauerweid, demeure légèrement ouvert sur la taille. Quant à la buffleterie (banderole porte giberne et ceinturon porte sabre), elle est portée croisée sur la poitrine. La conséquence, c'est l'apparition d'une deuxième patte d'épaule. On prend également l'habitude de porter le manteau roulé par dessus le havresac, comme dans l'armée française. Ci joints dessins extraits de mes publications.
Ce qui me pose problème sur ton document, c'est le fait que les habits représentés ont les revers droits, comme après 1810, et que par ailleurs, les retroussis sont de la couleur distinctive. Pourtant, même après 1810, ils sont blancs et bordés d'un passepoil. De même, les pattes d'épaules sont également de la couleur distinctive, alors qu'elles devraient être 1/ au moins blanches en 1806 2/passepoilées après cette date (?) ou en tous cas à partir de 1810.
Par ailleurs, il faut bien distinguer chaque personnage :
A gauche, nous avons un musicien, pour lequel il n'y a pas grand chose à dire, compte tenu de sa position et du fait que l'image est en noir et blanc; au centre, un mousquetaire ? Ne semble t'il pas avoir un petit plumet sur le chapeau ? Et a t'il un ceinturon et le sabre comme le 3e personnage à droite qui lui le porte à la taille. Sur la giberne, remarquons la plaque en forme d'écu, surmontée d'une couronne? Cela ne rappelle t'il pas la période 1810-1813? Pour le 3e personnage, le sabre est doté d'une dragonne apparemment blanche. La poignée du sabre indique un modèle en usage parmi les grenadiers avant 1810; ou alors parmi les mousquetaires à partir de 1810. L'auteur a t'il voulu représenter ici un Sous officier ?
Je ne me penche pas sur le cas des cuirassiers, qui me paraissent curieux, et pour lesquels j'émets de sérieux doutes.
Questions : le document indique l'année 1807. A quelle époque a t'il été effectivement réalisé ? Ne pourrait on pas y voir une interprétation possible, par anticipation, du futur réglement de 1810 ? A ce moment là, l'auteur aurait maintenu le port du chapeau, alors qu'il aurait fallu placer des shakos, et il nous présenterait alors des tenues de transition. De toute manière, même en partant sur cette hypothèse, les guêtres et la manière de porter le ceinturon ne sont pas conformes. Autre hypothèse : il a utilisé une base qu'il a ensuite plus ou moins bien adaptée en lui donnant le titre indiqué. Ce qui permettrait de comprendre les différentes erreurs et justifierait en partie l'aspect "prussien" de ces soldats.
Pour avoir une plus ample idée de la fiabilité de ce document, il faudrait voir l'intégralité de la série et de préférence en couleur.
En conclusion, bien que travaillant sur l'Armée saxonne depuis près de 15 ans, il y a encore bien des choses à découvrir et très certainement des documents qui demeureront inexpliqués, à défaut d'être explicables. J'en veux pour preuve une série de dessins (cf pièce jointe) qui se trouvaient dans le passé à la Bibliothèque du Musée de l'Empéri : les tenues représentées ne correspondent à rien de connu !
A vos réponses et très amicalement
Frédéric Berjaud.
Ps : texte écrit en français et traduit à l'aide d'un logiciel.

Hello Sas
This morning, I sent you a message on your freight forwarding{*messaging*} of the site. Think of consulting him{*it*}.
I work for years on the Saxon army and I was able to sweep{*annihilate*} practically all the sources on it subjects; but there are always new elements. The proof is your document. Concerning the board in black and white whom you propose us, there are various elements which must be underlined. At first, from the passage of the Saxon in the French rows{*ranks*} (and even a little before during the campaign in side of the Prussia), we notice modifications in the holding{*dress*}, doubtless by influence, but especially to adapt the holding{*dress*} to the French model (it is my opinion, because I doubt the Prussian influence in this time). We thus get used to closing lapels{*reverses*}, and the collar is cut in a more indented way. However, the dress, as shows him{*it*} Sauerweid, remains slightly opened on the size. As for the buffleterie (banner carries{*wears*} cartridge pouch and belt carries{*wears*} sabre), it is carried{*worn*} crossed on the breast. The consequence, it is the appearance of the second shoulder flap. We also get used to carrying{*wearing*} the coat rolled by above the haversack, as in the French army. This joined drawings extracted from my publications.
What raises me problem on your document, it is the fact that the represented clothes have the right{*straight*} lapels{*reverses*}, as after 1810, and that besides, lapel is of the distinctive colour. Nevertheless, even after 1810, they are white and lined with a passepoil. Also, shoulder flaps are also of the distinctive colour, while they should be 1/at least white in 1806 2 / passepoilées after this date (?) or in any cases from 1810.
Besides, it is necessary to distinguish every person:
To the left, we have a musician, for whom he big there thing{*matter*} to be said, considering his position and whom the image is in black and white; in the centre, a musketeer? Seems you he{*it*} not to have a small plume on the hat? And has you he a belt and the sabre as the 3rd person to the right who he carries{*wears*} him{*it*} in the size. On the cartridge pouch, let us notice the patch in the form of ecu, surmounted by a crown? It calls back{*reminds*} you he{*it*} not the period 1810-1813? For the 3rd person, the sabre is endowed with an apparently white wrist-strap. The handle of the sabre indicates a used model among pomegranate trees before 1810; or then among the musketeers from 1810. The author has you he wanted to represent here one to preside{*officiate*}?
I do not bend over the case of the cuirassiers, who seem to me curious, and for whom{*which*} I emit{*utter*} severe doubts.
Questions: the document indicates year 1807. In what time has you he{*it*} effectively realized? Could not one not see a possible interpretation, by anticipation, of the future regulation{*payment*} there of 1810? At this moment there, the author would have maintained the port{*bearing*} of the hat, while it would have been necessary to place shakoes, and he would present us then dresses of transition. Anyway, even by leaving on this hypothesis, gaiters and way of carrying{*wearing*} the belt are not in accordance. Other hypothesis: he{*it*} used a base which he{*it*} then more or less well adapted by giving him{*her*} the indicated title. What would allow to understand{*include*} the various errors and would justify partially the "Prussian" aspect of these soldiers.
To have a more ample idea of the reliability of this document, it would be necessary to see the completeness of the series and rather in colour.
In conclusion, although working on the Saxon Army since about 15 years, there are some more things to be discovered and very certainly documents which will remain unexplained, for lack of being explicable. I want for proof a series of drawings (cf accompanying document) which were in past in the Library of the Museum of Empéri: the represented dresses correspond to nothing known!
In your answers and very friendly
Frédéric Berjaud.
Ps: text writes in French and translates by means of a software.

[HKDW]

No Hess is not confirming the black and white print, Hovels did copy an extensive series of Sauerweid about the Saxon Army of 1809 and did change some details, so forget Hovels and concentrate on Sauerweid.

The cut of the Saxon infantry was different to the Prussian infantry of 1806.

In 1809 the Saxons hooked down the lapels as far as possible to create the immage of a straight lapel cut like the Prussians in 1806 but it still looked differently. They carried the packs on the back already.

[admin]

Sas,

welcome to the forum ... and it's no problem in talking in English, as nearly all of us understand English.

Did you check the different contemporary sources, I published about the Saxon army of 1806? You find a complete list (with regularly newly published series) at http://www.napoleon-online.de/html/z...formserie.html

For the Saxons I published:

http://www.napoleon-online.de/html/hess_sachsen.html (Hess 1806)

http://www.napoleon-online.de/html/hess_sachsen.html (Sauerweid 1810)

http://www.napoleon-online.de/html/s...811_corps.html (probably Christoph Bommer 1811)

Soon to be published: the Meerbohm for the 1806 uniforms.

The Hess confirms your newly found series ... which is really interesting - do you have colour pictures of it? And is it possible to publish the complete series? Of course I'd pay the costs for the (digital) images to the museum or archive in Danzig/Gdansk ... and: are there more uniform series?

Nice regards
Markus stein

P.S. the polish people here are very competent and helpful for us Germans, congratulations to your research efforts!

[Sas]

Hello Everyone!
I’m new member of this forum. I come from Poland but I’m interested in Saxon army (I even reenact it). Unfortunatelly after 9 years of teaching German language, I’m not able to build correctly even one simple sentence, so please forgive me using english language on German forum You may answer in German, with dictionary’s helpful hand I would read it.
But ad rem. A few weeks ago in Dazig city museum a series of unpublisheg pictures was found (see below). On one of them Saxon infantry is shown. As you can see the cut of uniform is very interesting, it’s the same as for Prussian infantry in 1806.
My first conclusion was “what a mistake!! Howel (author) must be an idiot” BUT :
Firstly: Author have seen Saxon troops during besige of Danzig, so he should be quite realible source... Mr Howel painted also Baden and Polish troops. For Baden and Polish troops there is nothing new (exept for some details)... so could he make mistake only while painting Saxon troops?
Secondly: I have seen mr Sauerweid picture presenting Saxon army in 1809 resting in march. Quality of the copy I have is not very good. But If I’m not wrong, soldiers wear uniforms similiar to these painted by Howel. Perhaps I’m wrong or mayby Sauerweid picturtes are not the most realible source, but they made my confused.
Thirdly: I have also found painting of sige of Danzig with Saxon infantry on the foreground. I could see only their backs, but what was interesting, that they had coloured turnbacks. Unfortunatelly it was attacched to old book in bad condition so I couldn’t make copy.
The question is: Do you find this painting one big mistake or it has some historical value?
Best regards